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Author Topic: Getting ready for Bonneville(rebuild)  (Read 607470 times)
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maguromic
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« Reply #360 on: July 22, 2008, 12:19:28 AM »

Just curious what size pump takes a -12?  I have a waterman 700 for my F2 and was thinking of going with -10 and -8.  Boy, and I  thought that was big. 
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bvillercr
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« Reply #361 on: July 22, 2008, 12:40:00 AM »

the pump is an 80a, 7.3 gpm
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NArias3
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« Reply #362 on: July 22, 2008, 12:27:48 PM »


Sounds like you know him.  Yeah great guy and knows his stuff.  He and his co-worker have a lot great ideas brewing in their heads.  Justin Sharp and his co-worker is Justin as well.

Yes Troy, Justin is a good customer of mine.  He builds and tunes some bad @ss Toyota Supras and Hondas.  They know their stuff.

Nick 3rd.
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« Reply #363 on: July 22, 2008, 02:19:05 PM »

  Update on whats going on.The pump is a Enderly 80a flows 7.3 gal min on Joe Bogasian's flow bench. A few people thought we needed a bigger fuel pump but Jim at Enderly Thought we were still bypassing plenty of fuel and a bigger pump would just make it richer on the bottom end. Ordered more jets and waiting on them.
The problem with centrifugal and turbos is the boost and airflow come up on the square of the rpm so the fuel pump can't keep up. To solve the problem we will start tuning with the boost sensing device mounted on the fuel tank ( had it for years but to hard to tune with out dyno) this device senses the boost and restricts the flow from the barrel valve making the system richer as the boost comes up. Boost line from intake manifold on one side of sensor valve, fuel line return to tank on barrel valve on other side. also has what is called an A valve in line with boost line which is just a device to change a jet.The bigger the jet or (pill) the more boost the sensor sees and richens the system on the top end. Just what we need.
  Also ordered a new tach ( Auto Meter 9000rpm with 80 sec playback) This  will enable us to replay the entire run on the tach and show shift points and tire spin.(way cool). $239.88 from Summit.
  New MSD programable digital-7 plus ignition and digital-7 programmer from Jegs.com. You can do a lot with the timing with this ignition but i've always wanted one because of the ability to set how fast the engine revs.
This has allowed the 10.5'' dragtire doorslamers to go over 200mph at the drags. I've recommended this ignition in the past to solve wheelspin problems,so in a way i'am sort of glad the other ignition was acting up so i had an excuse to buy this one (except for the cost) and so close to beville.
 Our new rollcage padding arrived yesterday but the car is still on the dyno so can't install.
 Parts should be hear tomorrow install thursday.
 SPECIAL thanks to my understanding and supportive wife Linda.

                JL222
  

« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 02:24:30 PM by jl222 » Logged
Sumner
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« Reply #364 on: July 22, 2008, 02:52:16 PM »

John thanks for the added info.  I imagine you have already done this, but how many by-pass circuits do you run with the barrel valve?  I'm only smart enough to ask the question, but Tom has sent me info before on running more circuits to help with the fuel demands at idle, part throttle and full throttle and even more if needed.  I don't know if there is an answer there somewhere or not?

c ya,

Sum
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« Reply #365 on: July 22, 2008, 03:30:03 PM »

John thanks for the added info.  I imagine you have already done this, but how many by-pass circuits do you run with the barrel valve?  I'm only smart enough to ask the question, but Tom has sent me info before on running more circuits to help with the fuel demands at idle, part throttle and full throttle and even more if needed.  I don't know if there is an answer there somewhere or not?

c ya,

Sum

  Hi Sum
 we just run one .With the hilborn setup they run 8 idle or low speed nozzles with check valve and 8 high speed nozzles , a bit complicated for me with no flow bench. + they have the boost sensing valve. We might be able to put a check valve before the barrel valve. We have an E valve that restricts flow at idle, but it didn't seem to help.
  Some of those check valves are set up after the barrel valve which we can't do with out changing every thing.
   also on the Hilborn set up it seems they had two returns to the tank.

                                   JL222                  
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 03:42:38 PM by jl222 » Logged
Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #366 on: July 22, 2008, 04:16:47 PM »

I really admire guys that tackle constant flow injection for something like your engine. It is so huge and has so many really expensive parts, many of which can turn into junk with a small mistake on injector tuning. Constant flow injection tuning all gets down to trying to control the fuel pressure at the injector nozzle and the flow thru the nozzle is not directly proportional to the pressure it is related a square root function of pressure ratios and now your blower out put is big time non linear plus the barrel valve is a variable orifice. How do you do it!!!! I can see getting it to run at WOT but anything below that is just a big compromise. Of course it seems that electronic injection could be the answer but for a motor of the size you have plus the power that you are making the injector size gets huge!! You would probably need an injector that would flow 200 lbs/hr which is huge! Which shows one of the advantages of constant flow injection and that is you can really pour some fuel into big engines like yours at WOT. If you use a BSFC number of around .6 lb/hp-hr your engine would need about 1260 lbs of fuel per hour which is about 2.5 gallons per minute flow required from your pump which is rated at 7.3 gpm at WOT so you certainly have sufficient pump for WOT. Someone needs to make an electronic constant flow injection system. Use an electronic proportional pressure relief valve and then map the fuel system pressure required to provide the correct flow thru the injector nozzles at various engine speeds and loads, just like you would do with a electronic injection system that uses plus width injectors. Then you would have lots of fuel flow potential for big motors and you could more easily make the fuel curve fit the engines needs.

I cannot wait to see you guys in August!! You are my heros!

Rex
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Sumner
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« Reply #367 on: July 22, 2008, 05:24:08 PM »

............. Of course it seems that electronic injection could be the answer but for a motor of the size you have plus the power that you are making the injector size gets huge!! You would probably need an injector that would flow 200 lbs/hr which is huge! ...............

Probably the reason some use two sets of injectors.  Rex be sure and talk to me about this at Speed Week.  We are data logging fuel pressure I think in the distribution block and we only have one set of injectors in the hat for both low speed and WOT.  We are data logging, but not really knowing what to do with that info at this time.  Now bring me things we can try and accomplish without dyno time, which is pretty much out of the question for us expense wise.  Also I need to understand it, while you were graduating in engineering at the U. of Wyo. I switch to something easier  cool.

c ya in a few weeks and yes they are my heroes also and I love to hear that motor,

Sum
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« Reply #368 on: July 22, 2008, 10:27:12 PM »

 Rex and Sum
 The guys at Precision Auto said they would use two 160 lb per hr injectors per cylinder if we went electronic but i would like to do it with the mechanical. But not going to be stubborn about changing, to late this year anyhow.
 Hope to see both of you at Bville.

          JL222
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 10:34:25 PM by jl222 » Logged
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« Reply #369 on: July 22, 2008, 10:59:27 PM »

   I ordered the new tach from Summit yesterday about 6 pm got an email from them shortly after saying it had been shipped  and it was delivered today at 5 pm and i'm at the end of the route! Pretty good huh? I'm about 25 miles east of Fresno Ca. and Summit is in Reno Nevada. Over the Sierra mountains.

                 JL222
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« Reply #370 on: July 23, 2008, 09:31:49 AM »

Sumner, I have seen as many as three electronic fuel injectors per cylinder on some drag cars running on alcohol. My injectors are 150 lb per hour size and I have used a very small amount of duty cycles, however my engine is nothing like JL's. I sure hope they run good after all the work and $$$$$$$$$.
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jl222
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« Reply #371 on: July 24, 2008, 12:03:05 AM »

  I was on my way to Precision Auto at 12.oo today (wed) to meet Troy and install new tach-fuel and boost lines, and there was the new ignition from Jegs at the gate. Where out in the country so they do that if the gate is closed. Any how ordered monday eve and had it wed morning, (25 bucks more for 2nd day from Ohio though) .So we were able to install the ignition also. Ready to fire but waiting on pills and nozzel jets.

       JL222
« Last Edit: July 24, 2008, 12:12:13 AM by jl222 » Logged
1 fast evo 2
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« Reply #372 on: July 24, 2008, 12:50:00 PM »

Rex and Sum
 The guys at Precision Auto said they would use two 160 lb per hr injectors per cylinder if we went electronic but i would like to do it with the mechanical. But not going to be stubborn about changing, to late this year anyhow.
 Hope to see both of you at Bville.

          JL222

That's funny that you posted this. I was reading this post from where I left off last time and I was going to suggest that you use 2 sets of 160 pounders and an electronic engine managment system and that thing would purrr like a kitten and then roar like a lion. But I totally understand if you want to run the mechanical injection because it is pretty cool but it will never run as good as a well tuned electronic setup.

I should of clarified myself when I asked you if you had a number on the car, what I meant was did you have a previous hp number that you ran your last speed numbers with.
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« Reply #373 on: July 25, 2008, 12:08:18 AM »

1 fast evo, in the chart we had up we were on pace to go over 300 when our overdrive in the tranny broke.  With that speed we assumed we were putting out about 1600HP.  We never had it on a dyno before this year.

Took some pictures of some of our new toys.

Digital 7 plus ingntion.



Programmer for the ignition.



Now how do you program it?



New memory playback tach.


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bvillercr
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« Reply #374 on: July 25, 2008, 07:00:50 PM »

We started it up again with all the new do dads on it.  Took a bit to get the new set up and barrel valve close enough for it to run clean.  Our last start up was very responsive and crisp, so on Monday we will run the car on the dyno and see what it will do.  Hopefully that will be the last day on the dyno and we will be able to take it home and get it ready to load. grin
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