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Author Topic: Water/Methanol Injection Article  (Read 39136 times)
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SnowTech
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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2007, 01:54:55 PM »

Russ you've got some interesting information but it sounds to me that your applications are more the exception than the standard to the types of diesel we've got our system on.  On something that's well developed and tried and trued (OEM applications), water/methanol injection has been proven time and time again as being a very safe and effective way to increase horsepower, increase fuel efficiency, and decrease EGTs on diesel applications.

Thanks,

Nate

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Seldom Seen Slim
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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2007, 02:14:56 PM »

Okay, Nate, here's a pedestrian question about your system and my potential need for it.

I drive an '04 Duramax (the 330 hp version) and have plenty of power for everything I need to do, so I'm not interested in increasing hp.  EGT?  Who cares, at least in my application (for what it's worth, there's no muffler on my system -- just the factory soot filter.  The muffler went away soon after I got the truck).

So will the increased fuel economy you suggest I might get -- be worth the cost of your system?  I won't go into details about my driving habits here, but they're pretty well-defined, and if you need to hear about how much I drive, etc -- let me know and I'll get in touch directly.

Thanks.
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2007, 04:29:21 PM »

Okay, Nate, here's a pedestrian question about your system and my potential need for it.

I drive an '04 Duramax (the 330 hp version) and have plenty of power for everything I need to do, so I'm not interested in increasing hp.  EGT?  Who cares, at least in my application (for what it's worth, there's no muffler on my system -- just the factory soot filter.  The muffler went away soon after I got the truck).

So will the increased fuel economy you suggest I might get -- be worth the cost of your system?  I won't go into details about my driving habits here, but they're pretty well-defined, and if you need to hear about how much I drive, etc -- let me know and I'll get in touch directly.

Thanks.

Hey Slim,

Do you have any modifications on the truck besides the muffler delete? 

The fuel economy increases we claim are usually seen in high load states (towing) with modifications that increase air and fuel flow (air intakes, exhausts, and performance tuners/controllers/chips).  Most aftermarket programmers just add in more fuel to make more power however there is a point of limited returns.  Once a diesel reaches an overfueling condition it starts to lose efficiency and crank up EGTs.  With water/methanol injection, we're able to burn more of the fuel more completely while it's still in the combustion chamber instead of afterburning it in the exhaust.  With a more complete combustion we're harnessing more the the potential energy that the fuel has thereby increasing your efficiency.  This allows you to make more power using the same amount of fuel or make the same amount of power using less fuel.  This equates to an increase in fuel economy. 

We've seen that increased air and fuel flow rates usually net better efficiency increases.  There are still increases to be had on totally stock trucks however they may not be as significant.  Typical increases are 1-2 mpg or 10-15%.  If you give me a call or list out some more specific details we can actually figure out how many tanks of fuel it would take to pay for the kit.

Thanks,

Nate 

 
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greggearhead
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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2007, 04:38:28 PM »

Big pump off john deer v-8 of some sort- I'm sure he if putting in to much fuel- he had a set of injectors drilled out so big it blew the tips off a couple of them- I drilled him a set- think .028 holes which is still probably overdoing it- I also think he is trying to run to much timing - eng has 10 & 1/8 in long rods on 4& 3/4 stroke so shouldn't need quite as much[ don't member for sure but think rods are bout 1&1/2 " overlength} but he gets his advice from the  IH guys and thinks it applies to perkins. I just make the parts..russ

Heh heh.  Yeah, over-injected and admittedly too advanced on injection timing = diesel detonation (explosive heat expansion - usually while the piston is still coming up).  I'd be willing to bet the piston damage would have happened regardless of water or water-methanol injection, and likely sooner without it than with it. 

Man, those are some big rods.  I'd expect a much bigger stroke with rods that long, but I don't know industrial and heavy duty diesels like most of you guys. 
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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2007, 11:09:30 PM »

[quote   I'd be willing to bet the piston damage would have happened regardless of water or water-methanol injection, and likely sooner without it than with it. 

Not so -cept for the 2 pistons ruined by alky this eng has run for the last 10 years- its getting real tired-this eng has relatively small main bearings  so guess what gives up first--when I made the al heads I sugested :evil:maybe a good set of rods & pistons would be in order- no deal - OK- 3 hooks & one of the cast pistons crumbled & made a big mess- then comes the good stuff & deck plate etc. The pullers  all seem to dump in tons of fuel=lots of black smoke- I think they are basically burning off the hydrogen  for a quick burn & the carbon goes out stack as all O2 is used up.The water keeps everything from melting down and the whistle in one piece- Big perkins has gone through its share of them-they seem to want just enough water to keep the fire to 1 foot or less out stack-which brings up something I don't quite understand- there is a limited class & when these guys lean on em hard there is at least 3 foot fire out stack & their whistles seem to stay together??don't understand how they do it.-side note on water- Guy was using a hyd cyl full of water w/ hose hooked to intake manifold-& water side of cyl to injector nozzels as boost came up the cyl would push in more water as pressure in manifold increased- self regulating- till he went to Louisville  in feb & the water in his cyl got solid- that eng melted down @ less than 1/2 track...Perkins used a power washer pump- driven w/ gilmer belt. Interesting stuff as long as it's not my money-There was another big perkins running out of N Missouri-My guy stopped by to see how they were doing- nobody home so he checked w/ neighbor- guy told him - so far they have gone through 1500 of grandmas acres..russ
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« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2007, 10:39:56 AM »

Nate:

Other modifications include Rotella synthetic oil and Moon discs on the wheels.  Oh, yeah, I've put lots of stickers on the truck.

I've got fuel consumption records for the last 98,000 miles or so, so will be able to see any changes that might occur.  For the sake of the discussion, I get about 22 or so in "around-town" riding, which means the 22 miles of riding at 55 on the way to and from work each day during "summer".  Winter (which i define as the six months or so when I've got the winterfront on the truck) I get about 19 mpg.  Cross country with no trailer gives about 24-25 mpg, and cross country with the 8 x 16 by 9 1/2' tall trailer yeilds a titch under 15 mpg. 

We do not ever exceed posted speed limits, and there are no interstate highways within 150 miles of us, so that means most driving is done at 55 or less.

Oh, yeah -- stock tires are LT245 - 16, and the economy numbers above reflect that size.  This past winter I ran 265's and economy dropped about 5% (adjusting for various errors in circumference, of course).

Is that enough to get you started on making an EWAG?
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2007, 11:29:31 AM »

Using manifold pressure to supply and regulate water ingestion ?
We could invent something and call it "Water Ingestion".
What a concept !!!! wink
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« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2007, 11:44:31 AM »

Jon,
Got Stainless working on your injection tank yet evil See you Monday.
John
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2007, 08:15:52 PM »

no he's working on oil pans, chain guard and gas tank.  Already have a water tank for the injection, same one used for the intercooler...  wink
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« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2007, 03:50:45 PM »

Slim - you've got a PM.

Nate
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« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2007, 04:05:54 PM »

Nate:

You've got a response.

Jon
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2007, 05:32:30 PM »

Nate,

This is a good time to let us know on a group buy. I think there are many interested. And what can you do for us on a group buy for one of your water injection systems?

Jon
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SnowTech
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« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2007, 01:23:31 PM »

Hey Slim,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you about your question.  We're on a bit of a limited staff and we're getting into our peak season so we're all pretty busy.  Anyways here is what I have calculated:

Before water/methanol: Filling up your 25 gal fuel tank should cost you $75 assuming diesel costs $3/gal.  At 15 mpg, your range is 375 miles.  This equates to $.20/mile traveled.

After water/methanol: Filling up your tank still costs the same but with a 1-2 mpg increase your range has increased to 425 miles.  This equates to $.17/mile traveled.  Assuming that you travel the same distance as you did before (375 miles), you'd be now using 3 less gallons of fuel which equates to a $9 savings per tank.

With your $9 savings, it would take about 60 full tanks of fuel to have the kit pay for itself. 

Nate
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« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2007, 01:49:43 PM »

Nate,

This is a good time to let us know on a group buy. I think there are many interested. And what can you do for us on a group buy for one of your water injection systems?

Jon


With your permission we can start a group buy when ever you like. 

We would need a minimum commitment of 10 kits.  The discount would be 15% and it would apply to any of our gas or diesel systems.  Accessories such as upgraded reservoirs, solenoid upgrades, dual nozzle upgrades, and any other items are eligible for the discount so long as they're purchased with a kit. 

If we could start a new thread I would need to have the following information:

Name
Vehicle/Engine Type
HP
Boost

Once I have that information I will suggest the appropriate kit(s).  From there I can be contact and payment arrangements can be made.  I WILL NOT process any payments until we have fulfilled the 10 kit minimum. 

If this'll work for you Jon we can start this whenever you'd like.

Nate   
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Seldom Seen Slim
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2007, 10:28:07 AM »

Nate:

I get that 15 mpg only when towing -- that is, the powertrain is working relatively hard.  If I get approx. 10% better fuel economy then -- what kind of change (plus or minus) might I expect for the vast majority of the miles I drive at light load?  60 tanks of fuel towing will take me a couple of years to travel.  That's fine -- at least it's a known known,  The unknown known is whether I can expect an increase in range when driving around without the trailer.  A "yes" answer, preferably one that tells me I'll see similar positive results, will be the make-or-break for whether I buy one.

Installation?  One hour?  Lots of drilling and machining?  Four hours of shop labor at my local garage 'cause i don't handle tools real well?  Fits right under the hood -- if I remove the inner fender?

I expect others might be gleaning some information from your responses to my questions, so I'm not asking just to assuage my idiocy.  Two final questions -- delivery time after receipt of order? and Do you accept credit cards?
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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