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Author Topic: Water/Methanol Injection Article  (Read 38202 times)
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Sumner
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2007, 08:04:37 PM »

Nate,

How do those controllers work. What can you control? Is there more to the story on those controllers then what your website says? Or Doesn't say? And lets say we want a system for a 4 cylinder is there a system for a nozzle / cylinder or just a single nozzle setup?

Jon


I'll give it a shot until he replies.  Hooley is picking our stuff up tomorrow.

Nate will help you pick a nozzle/nozzles depending on the HP you will be making.  We are going with two in the top hat on top of the Roots style blower.

Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi..  Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%.  So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%.  It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time.  At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size.  Very similar to EFI.

Now I'll hope Nate responds and lets you know what really happens  cool so I'll know myself.

c ya,

Sum
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russ jensen
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« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2007, 11:37:01 PM »



Are you suggesting that a small concentration of methanol melted through two of your pistons?  There are so many variables involved that I find it difficult to believe that washer fluid had enough methanol in it to cause any kind of catastrophic damage.   

Nate
[/quote]Wasn't melted through- just  around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another  wreck waiting to happen.
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russ jensen
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« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2007, 12:03:51 AM »


From our research and according to a number of SAE technical papers, the combustion characteristics of methanol make it act as a catalyst in a diesel.  Because of its effective octane/cetane rating and combustion rate, methanol tends to work best in a diesel application.

Hope this helped.

Nate
[/quote]wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.
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speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.
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« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2007, 02:44:26 AM »

Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ? wink

Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.
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"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"
Super Kaz
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« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »

I always get a long pause on the phone when ever I tell customers that they can pick up 50-80 hp on their diesel truck using windshield washer fluid which is then followed by "did you just say washer fluid??"

Nate

Nate,
I Destroyed  6 ATS Billet input shaft Transmissions & Convertor's,and 1 BADA$$ 03 6.0 psd Motor before I gave it up! Try 150rwhp & 300rwtq extra with 100% Methanol injection an the two tiny SMC jets shocked! 511rwhp 903rwtq with a stock motor & turbo! It works Great but it' was hard on my stuff.
I Also Blew up my brand new Saleen SC-281 SPEEDSTER trying to run it with Pump gas and 14lbs of Boost''The Buick guy's go 25lbs",and my SMC Setup cry! I admit I broke allot of stuff using that DRUG:oops:!
Just becareful and don't do a KAZ evil.............................

I Was a Great Beta Tester for Edge,ATS,and Ford! Line Pressure or Lack of it was the Problem back then.
We had no Transmission Line Pressure control back in 2003 for the Ford's
The Ton of  immediate HP & TQ  Speed-ed up the Failures evil!


* V-Rod Phx Project 554.jpg (69.61 KB, 640x480 - viewed 512 times.)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 02:14:42 PM by Super Kaz » Logged
greggearhead
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« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2007, 01:22:18 PM »

Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi..  Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%.  So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%.  It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time.  At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size.  Very similar to EFI.

Very close - except that the cycling of the pump actually varies the line pressure and we vary the injection by that pressure.  If you are familiar with Bosch CIS injection on older European cars - it is exactly the same concept. 



Sorry - forgot to introduce myself.  Name is Greg Dunn and I am Sales Director for Snow Performance.  Been to the salt several times helping friends - never raced there myself, though. 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 02:05:46 PM by greggearhead » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2007, 02:09:35 PM »

wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.

I am not a chemist, but octane and cetane are completely different ratings for different types of behaviors - so an octane booster in spark ignition could be a cetane booster or decreaser in another.  If you reference SAE Technical paper #940326 from "Alternative Fuels in CI & Heavy Duty Engines" (SP-1027) it lists pure methanol with a Cetane of 4.  They actually had to preheat the air on the test engine more (than on straight diesel) when injecting methanol, or they got too slow of a flame travel and a slower ignition. 
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greggearhead
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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2007, 02:12:39 PM »


Wasn't melted through- just  around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another  wreck waiting to happen.

If it has black smoke - it is overfueled.  The black smoke is the particulate emission.  Over fueling leads to higher and higher EGTs and engine melting.  water-Methanol can help burn the "extra" fuel more completely and reduce EGTs so the compression ignition engine is safer, not more likely to melt.  What type of injectors and pump was he using? 
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SnowTech
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« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2007, 02:16:34 PM »

Quote from: russ jensen
wait a minute here- alky is an octane booster according to the eng design book I have- that would seem to disqualify it as a cetane booster which isn't supposed to be good for a diesel??specially a high speed one-he was turning the big perkins 6500 which seems a bit fast for a direct inject eng.

Your engine design book is correct however you took my statement out of context.  I never made any mention of methanol being a cetane booster.  Octane ratings and cetane ratings are on completely different spectrums.  As I had said previously the effective octane/cetane rating of methanol makes it act as a combustion catalyst in a diesel application.  It is not a cetane booster. 

Quote from: JackD
Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ?

Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.

We need to increase the injection rate to support the increase in airflow and heat.  Our system operates at a pressure of 150-200+ psi.  This provides the best atomization which increases surface area for cooling and equal distribution.  We don't pressurize our reservoirs.  If you relied on manifold pressure to pressurize a reservoir you wouldn't have any injection because the two pressures counteract each other and you'd have an equalization.

JackD from Sand Diego... hmmm.  I'm willing to bet I know who you are but if you tell me your last name I'll be sure to pass that hi on to my dad.

Quote from: Super Kaz
Nate,
I Destroyed  6 ATS Billet input shaft Transmissions & Convertor's,and 1 BADA$$ 03 6.0 psd Motor before I gave it up! Try 150rwhp & 300rwtq extra with 100% Methanol injection an the two tiny SMC jets ! 511rwhp 903rwtq with a stock motor & turbo! It works Great but it' was hard on my stuff.
I Also Blew up my brand new Saleen SC-281 SPEEDSTER trying to run it with Pump gas and 14lbs of Boost''The Buick guy's go 25lbs",and my SMC Setup ! I admit I broke allot of stuff using that DRUG:oops:!
Just becareful and don't do a KAZ .............................

Wow those are impressive numbers.  I knew there were a few people out there running 100% methanol on their diesels.  I don't want to counter what SMC may have advised you with as far as tuning and wht kind of fluid to use but we only recommend a 50/50 mix of water/methanol.  At that point the concentation of methanol is low enough to prevent any kind of problems but high enough to still make some good power increases.  The water acts as an intercooler helping to reduce IATs and create a more condensed air charge.  This effectively gets more oxygen into the combustion chamber giving you the ability to burn more fuel and make more power while reducing EGTs. 

As far as your Speedster goes did you run out of fluid (clog, forgot to fill the tank, etc.) or was there some kind of system failure?  There is always the potential for detonation when a gas engine is setup to depend on water/methanol injection for air charge cooling or increases in effective octane.  Luckily we've developed a product called SafeInjection that actually monitors flow in our system.  If fluid flow ever drops below a certain safe level the SafeInjection sends out a 12 volt signal.  This signal can be used to operate a solenoid that can safely decrease boost why opening a wastegate actuator or blow off vale.  The signal can also be used to pull timing or change fueling/timing maps depending on your engine management. 

I run our system on my daily driver which is pushing 20-22 psi of boost while running 91 octane pump gas.  grin
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greggearhead
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« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2007, 02:18:24 PM »

Splain to me the need for a regulated intake fluid pump for added injection in a blown system that makes it's own air.
Doesn't the demand go up with the air pressure and presumably the added pressure on the fluid reservoir would follow the need ? wink

Say HI to your dad.
He was one of the first ones to use NOS for LSR.

The demand for water or water-methanol does go up with intake pressure/heat, so we inject more according to that signal.  We do not, repeat not use a hose from boost pressure to run to a sealed reservoir using boost pressure to dribble fluid out of a hose into the intake.  Very rudimentary, very inaccurate, very very poor atomization.  We use a high-pressure pump (150-220psi) and a special atomization nozzle to get great atomization, and a digital controller to modulate when and how much is injected.  
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Super Kaz
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2007, 02:23:24 PM »


Wasn't melted through- just  around valve pockets & down side into top ring-I don't get involved in tuning the smokers-but this one put out about as much black smoke as the pheonix- he probably was giving it enough fuel- the washer fluid was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak-these puller engs are pushed to max so just a little to much is to much-wise old puller {shotgun red knew what was going to happen as soon as he heard washer fluid }side note- injector pump pulled so hard that the helical gear on cam broke the end off cam- some go to strt cut gears to avoid the problem-quick fix here was another cam- another  wreck waiting to happen.

If it has black smoke - it is overfueled.  The black smoke is the particulate emission.  Over fueling leads to higher and higher EGTs and engine melting.  water-Methanol can help burn the "extra" fuel more completely and reduce EGTs so the compression ignition engine is safer, not more likely to melt.  What type of injectors and pump was he using? 

Actually it was the opposite with my 2003 6.0 psd huh!We had Maxed out the stock injectors with 55lbs of Boost so the 100% Methanol was the Extra Fuel to Burn with the  added Air! Ever see 35's at 150mph on the Dyno shocked!!Scary Top Fuel Distortion as they rolled of the Rims cry........
The Things I did to my poor Truck embarassed.


* Kaz little Trailer 010.jpg (74.48 KB, 640x480 - viewed 460 times.)
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SnowTech
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2007, 02:29:03 PM »

Nate,

How do those controllers work. What can you control? Is there more to the story on those controllers then what your website says? Or Doesn't say? And lets say we want a system for a 4 cylinder is there a system for a nozzle / cylinder or just a single nozzle setup?

Jon


I'll give it a shot until he replies.  Hooley is picking our stuff up tomorrow.

Nate will help you pick a nozzle/nozzles depending on the HP you will be making.  We are going with two in the top hat on top of the Roots style blower.

Now with the controller we are getting you set the boost level that you want it to start spraying, I think 0 to 8 psi..  Then you set the boost level where it is spraying 100%.  So let's say in our case we could set it so it starts spraying at 4 lbs. of boost and at 10 lbs. it is spraying 100%.  It pumps at the same pressure all of the time, I think 150 psi, but the controller pulses the pump on and off to regulate the amount of water and/or water/methanol mix between none to 100 percent duty cycle where it is spraying all the time.  At this point the total being sprayed is dependent on the nozzle size.  Very similar to EFI.

Now I'll hope Nate responds and lets you know what really happens  cool so I'll know myself.

c ya,

Sum


Sums pretty much got it.  The pump is actually powered by a constant voltage and we use pulse width modulation to cycle the pump at a very high frequency.  The gives us a way to vary pressure without having to vary voltage which is damaging to the pump's electric motor.  

Jon, we can run our system in any configuration imaginable.  The main reason we use one nozzle is for simplicity in installation and tuning.  Our system atomizes the fluid so well that one nozzle can easily feed all cylinders because there are billions of tiny fluid particles that are easily carried along in the air stream giving you equal distribution.  On Hooley's Studie we're running a nozzle on each side of the blower hat.  We could actually support his current horsepower level using one nozzle but because of nozzle placement limitations we decided the split the flow and go with two nozzles.

Snow Performance has non-progressive systems that reference boost or vacuum as well as progressive systems that reference boost or MAF output (for EFI vehicles).  We're currently developing a new system that uses 2D injection management.

Thanks,

Nate
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JackD
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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2007, 04:54:31 PM »

The spray pattern and atomization are a product of the correctly designed nozzle for the application.
The available manifold pressure moves the fluid on demand into the intake tract segment that is at the normal atmospheric pressure, and there ya go.
I sign Jack Dolan to racing stuff and I'll bet your dad will laugh at the reminder of My (aerodynamic devices) shark fins in comp coupe, or perhaps the .125" engine setback.
He will cry about My position on NOS.

"Keeping it simple allows more time to go faster."  (me)  wink

« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 12:52:42 AM by JackD » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2007, 12:38:03 AM »

.  What type of injectors and pump was he using? 
Big pump off john deer v-8 of some sort- I'm sure he if putting in to much fuel- he had a set of injectors drilled out so big it blew the tips off a couple of them- I drilled him a set- think .028 holes which is still probably overdoing it- I also think he is trying to run to much timing - eng has 10 & 1/8 in long rods on 4& 3/4 stroke so shouldn't need quite as much[ don't member for sure but think rods are bout 1&1/2 " overlength} but he gets his advice from the  IH guys and thinks it applies to perkins. I just make the parts..russ
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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2007, 12:52:33 AM »

[quote author=greggearhead   They actually had to preheat the air on the test engine more (than on straight diesel) when injecting methanol, or they got too slow of a flame travel and a slower ignition. 
[/quote]2 ea killers of high speed direct inj diesels- since the time for the fire to get lit from inj point is the same regardless of rpm- ign accelerators like nitrobenzene- or amonia compounds are a help and things like alky hurt- same effect as raising the rpm till the stuff gets mixed real well and detonates the gig apart. on big perkins I wanted to run a small pump & injector in deck plate- so as to start a small pilot flame before big injector hit- been told that is being done w/ electronic injectors on some of the new gen clean diesels..russ
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speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.
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