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Author Topic: V4F/STR Build  (Read 13136 times)
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roygoodwin
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 02:12:57 PM »

The 3.78 limitation may be for V8 centersections -- Winters makes a rear that has a 3.08 & it is also avaiable with a 2.00.  It's a 10" ring gear & may have more drag (probably a LOT more) than a Model A, but would handle a LOT of power.

http://www.wintersperformance.com/catalogs/2005WintersPerformance/0201024.htm

Also a question, I vaguely recall seeing a 3.27  ring and pinion for the early ford V8 rear, which I *think* should fit a V8 QC, but haven't been able to find one via google.  It's mostly curosity & to help me feel better about what's left of my memory.

roy
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desotoman
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 02:56:30 PM »

Roy,
   The 3.78 ratio I was talking about is for the V8 center section that Winters makes. I called Beaver about 6 months ago and that is what he told me. He also told me that Ford gears would not work in their V8 unit.
    You are 100% correct on the ring and pinion ratios for the other Winters rear ends. They are alot more expensive than the V8 unit, and not needed for a V4F/STR.
    Yes 3.27 gears were made years ago for Ford rearends. They will fit in certain quickchanges. Some you must modify other I have been told they go right in. They are a very hard ring and pinion to find. Your memory is fine.  smiley

Tom G.
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4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 08:49:49 PM »

Thanks Tom.  I also see that the Hot Rod Works http://www.hotrodworks.com/ now carrys them.

More questions!

Running the T-5 (1.00:1 4th & 0.76:1 5th) and looking for maybe 100 mph in my first outing, wouldn't the 3.78 ration be a better choice?  Or 4:11? (gotta go back to Sum's site and figure out speeds/tire sizes, etc.)

And, scratching my head, isn't that why a quickchange is used?  To change the gear ratios?  Or is there more friction in gears other that 1:1?

Mike
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Sumner
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 10:23:46 PM »

Thanks Tom. ...........wouldn't the 3.78 ration be a better choice?  Or 4:11? (gotta go back to Sum's site and figure out speeds/tire sizes, etc.)

And, scratching my head, isn't that why a quickchange is used?  To change the gear ratios?  Or is there more friction in gears other that 1:1?
Mike

The 4.11 or the 3.78 is the ring and pinion ratio.  They stay fixed in the quick change you buy.  Then there are the 2 "quick change" gears in the quick change that you change to change the final or over all ratio of the rearend.  Those gears come in many teeth counts to let you change the over all ratio quickly.

If you go with the 4.11's and lower say a 4.56 then the overall ratios are suited to circle track guys and not what we are doing.  You can't get a high gear like we want with the 4.11's and lower.

They are also rated by HP they will live with.

There is more and I hope someone will fill in the blanks as I researched these a year or two ago and quit when I felt for us a transmission that we could change gears in was better for us for now as we also needed something stronger than the Muncie we were using.  Eventually though a quick change would be an added treat and could help us fine tune our final drive ratio easier than changing the overdrive in the transmission, but all of this costs money and has to be done in steps.

c ya,

Sum
« Last Edit: December 15, 2006, 10:25:33 PM by Sumner » Logged

4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 10:34:31 PM »

Sum:

   I guess my question was poorly worded.  Perhaps better: Why should I worry about limited ring & pinion selection for a quick change, especially when the only selection is pretty close to what I need (i.e., it can be fine-tuned with the quickchange gears)?

Mike
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Sumner
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 11:37:54 PM »

Sum:

   I guess my question was poorly worded.  Perhaps better: Why should I worry about limited ring & pinion selection for a quick change, especially when the only selection is pretty close to what I need (i.e., it can be fine-tuned with the quickchange gears)?

Mike

Maybe my answer was poorly worded wink.

Lets take one brand as an example -- Halibrand.  They offer two styles of quick change.  One is the Champ used mostly by circle track guys and the other is call  the V-8 Style mostly used by street rodders and us.

With the Champ you have a choice of 3 different ring and pinions -- 4.11 - 4.57 - 4.86.  Using the 4.11 and different quick change gears the lowest final gear ratio is 7.71 and the highest 2.19.  With the 4.57 R & P you get 8.56 and 2.43.  With the 4.86 you get 9.11 and 2.59.  So the highest combination here is 2.19.

With the V-8 Style you can only get a 3.78 R & P gear.  With the available quick change gears for this rear you can go from a 7.95 final gear ratio down to a 1.80, which is much higher than the 2.19 with the Champ style.

I believe the Champ style will take a lot more HP than the V-8 style before breaking, but with the 4.11 R & P I think it can build more heat in our application and might need more HP to turn it (anyone?)

So as you go from manufacturer to manufacture you can't just change the R & P around.  If you go the the "links" page on my site you can link to a lot of the different quick change rears.

Hope this helps some,

Sum
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russ jensen
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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2006, 12:53:10 AM »

 :wink:I repete;quick changes suck.. we would guess track etc & try to get gearing just right, when went to GN rear 5 or 6 steps { like 5.42 to 5.14  in qc} a 5.14 punkin was    plenty close . tires arn't cheap either but they don't sap power like qc and a few dif sizes for rear would be an easy way to go, don't think a model A  eng has that much power to waste, least the ones I have played with..
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speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.
desotoman
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2006, 12:56:47 PM »

Mike,
   I will throw out another idea. If you are trying to build the ultimate VF4 Street roadster rear end. I would suggest using a stock early ford. Am I crazy? Maybe, but hear me out. A rear end that has it's pinion intersect at 90 degrees to the ring gear IMO is the most efficient rear end you can use. Gearsets of 3.27, 3.54, 3.78, and 4.11 can be obtained for an early ford rearend. You can run tire diameters from 22", 23", 24", 25", 26", 27", and 28" for drive tires. By doing this you would have a rear end that IMO takes the least amout of HP to drive, thereby getting more of the engines HP to the ground.
   Example: 3.54 gear with 24" tall tire @5000rpm = 101mph.
       "          "     "       "   25"  "     "       "            105mph.
   Example: 3.78 gear with 26" tall tire @5000rpm = 102mph.
                                    28"                             110mph
Good luck,
Tom G.
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4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2006, 10:55:05 PM »

Ha!  A reversal of plans!

At the beginning of this thread, I was going to use a 9" in the race car because....

I was going to pull it out of my B-motored Model A hot rod (which I originally built with a strong small block/automatic) and install a 3.54 open-drive banjo into the hot rod.

So...the best (and cheapest - I have all the parts already) plan may be to leave (for now) the 9" where it's at and put the banjo in the race car.  Just have to get the hub ends changed, etc...

Thanks!

Mike
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russ jensen
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« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2006, 01:42:25 AM »

Quote from: desotoman link=topic=1886.msg20785#msg20785 date=116629 Gearsets of 3.27, 3.54, 3.78, and 4.11 can be obtained for an early ford rearend.
Good luck,
Tom G.
[/quote
I had a 4.44 ring& pinion @  one time, came w/ my v-12 lincoln rear don't know how comon that set is or where mine went.
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RichFox
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2006, 02:45:21 PM »

If I remember correctly, and it has been a long time, Harry Hofman Sr. ran a Model A QC in his fuel burning Pinto powered Pinto. I think he told me that the Pinto side gears from the Pinto differantial were pretty much the same as the early Ford forged on ones. So he welded Pinto outer tubes to the early Ford bells and installed the side gears on the axle, and then bolted on the bell and tube. Something like that. You might try to ask him and get the right story.
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4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2006, 11:43:39 AM »

Thanks, Rich.  I'll probably use the kit from the Hot Rod Works.  Several of the guys in my 4-Barrel club use their axle/hub conversion kit.

Mike
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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2007, 01:03:29 AM »

With reference to what side gear to use in the early Ford rear end - you can you Dana 44 side gears, out of an early F100 tin hat rear end, and any other vehicle that was fitted with one of the rear ends - Studey comes to mind. Its better to get a donor rear end that is the same width as what you want, than to have to shorten the axles.

Maybe pintos used dana 44's.

any QC will drain power, as the quickchange must climb over the larger gear when reducing the final ratio, the taller the climb, the greater the loss of power.

Now if some-one in Calif had a good 4.44 Banjo crown wheel and pinion centre - I'd be interested. I'm looking at putting a '40 Packard overdrive trans in my coupe, and a 4.44 in overdrive equates to a 3.11:1 final ratio, with a 10.8:1 first gear - same as a stock '54 Chev trans.
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4-barrel Mike
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2007, 01:00:46 AM »

Thanks for the suggestion Stovebolt.

Mike
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2007, 03:48:09 PM »

4-Barrel --

I agree with DeSotoMan -- use the early Ford with a 3.54 or 3.78 and juggle tire sizes.  And do your figuring with the straight-thru 1:1 ratio of your 4th gear.  My Dream Wheel tells me that with a 28-inch rear tire with a 3.78 it's 100MPH at 4500 RPM.  With a 3.54 it's 100 MPH at 4200.  Reasonable R's for a banger, I think.  And using the 4th gear doesn't waste power in the trans.

If you got some power left, shift to 5th!

The added "Safety Hubs" should be sufficient for a 100-MPH lightweight Roadster.

Stan

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