Author Topic: new body class - I/GT  (Read 24639 times)

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Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
Comments . . .

  (The NHRA allows you to break their national records at any course, right?)

Yes but adjusted for altitude
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline dw230

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2018, 12:22:06 PM »
Chris,

The class you refer to didn't exist at the time the WoS was run, still doesn't. It is a simple matter of calling upon the collective memory of the LSR community to determine the status of the current GT record holders.

We are here to help you, trust us.

DW
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Offline deep in debt motorsports

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2018, 01:08:54 PM »
How about sticking all the gas/fuel roadster's that are a 1/16" off the ground in the Improved G/F roadster class. That makes more sense for us traditional guys????  :dhorse:
I'm listening,I like where this is going :cheers:
#327 C/GR

Offline desotoman

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2018, 02:00:07 PM »
How about sticking all the gas/fuel roadster's that are a 1/16" off the ground in the Improved G/F roadster class. That makes more sense for us traditional guys????  :dhorse:
I'm listening,I like where this is going :cheers:

On deaf ears, and blind readers, and that is why the beating of a dead horse. And for clarification JD is correct IMO.

Tom G.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2018, 04:31:37 PM »
Chris, remember all rule changes not involving safety are there to give someone (or someone's buddy) an advantage or put them at a disadvantage...  :wink:

It is not about the I class motor size.... my guess it involves one of the other motor sizes... anyone know who proposed the change and what they are running  :?

The draft of the proposal I saw was made by Keith Copeland.  His argument was to pull GT more tightly under the overarching production rules, and then open a 2nd category for engine swaps/body mods, etc.

There IS rationale to it, and while I trust Dan and the folks do everything possible to get it right, the record reallocation scheme does leave a lot open to interpertation and tribal knowledge. 

Hell, when I took the record in 2014, it had stood for 22 years.  I know some of you were probably there when the Highlander took the record in '92, but who would be able to swear out as to whether he was running a factory installed engine option?
 
There are certainly enough variations on the SBC that only experts can distinguish - whose was the last 'vette to run a correct factory 350 block?

And while "The Grenade" is really well documented here and in the press - I'd say to the point where pedigree is beyond question - and Mark and I are proud of what we did with the old tractor motor, is it fair to Tom Donney, who built an I-motor as permitted by the rules of the class at the time, to have to exchange his award because the rules became regressive ex post facto?

This might all be for naught if the rule change isn't adopted, but for now, I'm in a holding pattern waiting for a new rule which may or may not be coming.

So yes, I'm frustrated and becoming vocal.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline jacksoni

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2018, 05:35:06 PM »
Chris- remember that the definition of a swap goes to "engine family" which for a SBC is pretty much everything from the "55 265 up to the introduction of the LS series. Also, port layout is a factor so if by some magic you put the K head on the tractor motor that could no longer run production rules as the port layout is different even though the block is stock. I had same issue running a legal block but with a head that had different port layout than the  standard SBC head, therefore not production rules. But, this really is not the point you are trying to make. I understand your confusion and concern.
Displacement of course doesn't enter into it at all.
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2018, 10:11:25 PM »
Well Chris I can tell you when we held the record, it was not with the stock engine or engine type... it was with an Abarth OTR (semi hemi head) motor, the car came with a 750cc motor, pushrod but the engine parts would not swap.... but as you know it just had to be an Abarth motor. 
I think the Hilander had a twin cam motor.... but can't tell you it was the one it came with or even the same configuration, but it was an Abarth motor and not a Fiat.
Luckily no one has to sort that far back... at least not in I...
Stainless
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2018, 04:19:44 AM »

Chris- remember that the definition of a swap goes to "engine family" which for a SBC is pretty much everything from the "55 265 up to the introduction of the LS series. Also, port layout is a factor so if by some magic you put the K head on the tractor motor that could no longer run production rules as the port layout is different even though the block is stock. I had same issue running a legal block but with a head that had different port layout than the  standard SBC head, therefore not production rules. But, this really is not the point you are trying to make. I understand your confusion and concern.
Displacement of course doesn't enter into it at all.


Not that I have a dog in this fight . . . . .

It seems to me that much of the differences here stem from the definition of what is "production" or perhaps "production parts".    Most sanctioning bodies, (not all, I agree), define production parts as those that came "on the car, direct from the manufacturer, including factory options.  I'm most familiar with the rules from NASCAR and SCCA which seem arbitrary and restrictive, but: they make their rules.

Some random thoughts from a "wannabe deep thinker" . . . . .

A/   Production parts, those produced by the manufacturer, or under license from the manufacturer.   So, if you want to race a '28 Dodge, you gotta use a '28 Dodge block and head?

2/   In the aforementioned sanctioning bodies, random "unapproved" blocks, heads, and etc, are not "legal".   They get used at the peril of disqualification "if caught".  This can really limit what is available.

d/   Freedom of "parts use" has historically and typically been used to "equalize competition", "encourage creativity", or encourage competition entries from less "represented" manufacturers.



1/   Having said all this, I would further add that Gen I SBC are not the same as SB II, although much interchanges.   And of course, although SB II stuff has "trickled down" from "professional only use", none of those pieces ever
      came in production line autos.   What would be the rationale for use in "Production"?

2/   I can only agree that:
      a/   An Abarth is not a Fiat
      b/   A Gordini is not a Renault
      c/   A Cosworth is not a Ford
      Although ALL of the above examples are designed using the parent companies dimensions and "packaging", SIGNIFICANT performance differences result from the "aftermarket design".

3/   BMC being the poor, orphan cousin of "real" auto manufacturers, had various "sub-categories" in their engine "family".   And the parts DO NOT interchange.   Does this open the door to modifications for their use
      simply because they are production parts?

I post this simply to foster dialog about what might be a sensible path forward, whether the rules are changed, or remain the same.   Changes of this nature need to be well thought out, and discussed, so that they have the "intended result".

 :cheers:
Justwonderingboy
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2019, 09:15:00 AM »
Well the deal is done.

The new rules for the new category:


This is a completely new section behind 5.D.4 All in Bold
5.D.4.a Modified Grand Touring Sport (Gas Only)
This class is intended for series production sports cars which have been modified to such an
extent to make them illegal for the production (GT) class and limited production sports car type
bodies such as Kellison, Devin, Victress, Bradley and Sterling which may be placed on a
production or specially constructed frame. This class is limited to production and limited
production (a minimum of 50 produced) of the same model for sale to the general public. No
“One of a Kind” type bodies will be permitted.
One of the following modifications shall be done to be considered in this class:
1. The addition of a belly pan
2. A quick change rear end
3. An engine swap
4. A front-wheel drive vehicle converted to rear-wheel drive or a rear wheel drive vehicle
converted to a front wheel drive
Production sports cars with an engine swap (4.N) will be legal for the class. Blowers may be
used.
A GT Sports body may not be altered in height, width, length or contour. The wheel base shall
not be altered. All body panels shall be mounted in the original relationship to each other.
Factory soft top or open convertible windshields may be lowered or removed. Tonneau covers
(2.O) are allowed.
Any frame may be used as long as the bottom line of the frame is not higher than the outer
bottom line of the body between the firewall and the rear wheels. An exception will be made if a
stock frame and the same year/make of body are being used. If the ORIGINAL frame/body
relationship is such that the lower bottom line of the frame is above the outer bottom line of the
body, that frame/body combination may be used. The burden of proof of the ORIGINAL
frame/body relationship lies with the entrant. The frame may not be exposed from the bottom of
the body.
Any type rear-end differential may be used.
No change can be made to the driver's location as originally designed and the driver is seated
behind the engine except in the case of production sports car type bodies which were designed
and intended for rear engine usage. The driver must not be restricted from entrance or exit from
the vehicle by moving the cockpit covering.
Bumpers, grilles and front lights may be removed and the opening created may be filled or
covered. The filled or covered area may be flush with the adjacent body; the basic shape and
contour of the vehicle cannot be changed. Aftermarket front ends are allowed as long as they
conform to the class guidelines.
Blocking the airflow thru the radiator in front or behind is not allowed.
No streamlining, as described in Section 4.CC, is allowed, unless specified. Wheel wells may not
be filled or covered. Wheel well openings may be radiused for tire clearance. No taped or filled
body, door or window seams are allowed from the firewall back. Windows shall be mounted in
the stock fashion or fastened to the inside of the window openings. Minor chrome trim and
emblems may be removed.
The following items are permitted: Air dams and Splitters (4.CC.1). Skirts (4.CC.7) A non-stock
Spoiler (4.CC.8 ).
Any type of exhaust may be used, except no individual stacks are allowed, and can exit
anywhere from the body but the roof, top of front fenders or hood.
Roof-mounted spoilers, other than original for the body used, are prohibited.
The driver shall sit completely ahead of the rear axle, inside the body, and behind the engine,
except in rear-engine cars using the original engine LOCATION. Drip rails may be removed or
filled.
The following items are required: a starter capable of actually starting the engine, tail/stop lights,
a full transmission, either manual or automatic utilizing the full shift pattern and gears, a radiator
of the same dimensions or larger as originally equipped.
The following items are not permitted: air vents, headlight air scoops, blocked off radiator,
taping of body or window seams, non-stock head rest fairings, trip fences, or vortex generators.
Cars in this class are considered in the Modified Category and should comply with the General
Rules of the category.
Engine classes allowed are: AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2019, 10:22:47 AM »
I guess it will be interesting to see how they sort out the current records  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline manta22

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2019, 11:36:41 AM »
...and differentiate between Modified Grand Touring Sport and Modified Sports.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline dw230

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2019, 07:20:35 PM »
It is a new class not a CATEGORY. Records are sorted as well as the combined memory of the collective can recall.

Think of  Modified GT as a gas coupe, engine swap, OEM frame, some aero.

DW

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2019, 08:41:59 PM »
Actually Dan I think we should think of Modified GT as the old GT but you must do one of the allowables and GT as Production GT.... or at least that is the was it looks...  :-D
 :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline dw230

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2019, 09:25:16 PM »
I was trying to dumb it down.

DW
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: new body class - I/GT
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2019, 06:26:01 AM »

It is a new class not a CATEGORY. Records are sorted as well as the combined memory of the collective can recall.

Think of  Modified GT as a gas coupe, engine swap, OEM frame, some aero.

DW


Hi Dan,

OK, kinda stupid questions on my part, since I don't know the rule book as well as I should, so I need a clarification.

The rules read:

One of the following modifications shall be done to be considered in this class:
1. The addition of a belly pan
2. A quick change rear end
3. An engine swap
4. A front-wheel drive vehicle converted to rear-wheel drive or a rear wheel drive vehicle
converted to a front wheel drive



My questions:

A/  Does performing one of these modifications give you the option of running in Improved GT?
2/  OR, Does an "engine swap" ala the Milwaukee Midget, place the car by default into IGT?
d/  Is only one modification allowed?   OR, Could all 4 be performed, and the car be still eligible for IGT?

Obviously, the other modifications, lower in the rules listing, are all permitted as well, permitting quite a difference from regular GT.

The core issue for the Milwaukee Midget, (and other cars), is of course, if engine swaps are still allowed in regular GT, if that was the only "modification" from a car that was legal in its' GT class.



Thanks in advance Dan, for your thoughts on this matter.   If you are unable to provide a clarification on this issue, might you be willing to bring it to the attention of an official who might be able to provide some guidance?

 :cheers:
Mark 
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein