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Author Topic: The Erosion of Integrity  (Read 2191 times)
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shiphteey
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« on: September 05, 2017, 09:28:08 AM »

Greetings to all.

Its come to my attention that a few motorcycle entries may not have been legal.  The problem I have with illegal bikes being fielded and bumping up records is that it necessarily puts unfair additional costs on other competitors who are racing legit and not cheating.

A newer generation GSXR 1000 was piloted to 201 mph in the production (PB) class.  That record was previously held by Ed Holman.  The bike in question had a drag race style front strap (to compress the front end which subsequently reduces frontal area and improves aerodynamics) as well as the factory stock rear fender removed.  BOTH of those changes make the bike illegal for Production class.  Anyone with 1/2 a brain can walk around that Suzuki and see it has a front strap on it.  Said rider alleges that the strap was OKed by officials...if thats the case then do we retroactively allow all previous Production class record holders to rerun with a strap?  Do we add X mph to their trap speeds?  See the kinda can of worms this creates?

There's also a BMW S1000RR that certainly raises eyebrows...speeds are off the charts and while I'm absolutely thrilled every time I hear bikes going faster I've come to realize that not everyone is on the up and up in terms of rules.  This particular BMW doesn't have a small rider on it, and with only 1000cc is going speeds that are suspect.  Doing a little research proves that the engine was not legal for 1000cc as it was admitted to having a big bore kit in the classfieds section of a BMW forum....I suspect nitrous as well but I wasn't there and can't/won't accuse someone of something I can't prove.  The disclosure of the engine being larger than what is allowed in 1000cc, however, was disclosed.  That necessarily makes said records illegitimate and casts doubt on other runs from the same bike/rider....which is a shame....because I know this rider put lots of time and money into going fast.  But cheating isn't cool.  Whats to stop all 1000cc guys from going 1140cc with hidden nitrous kits to boot?  Whats the point of competing in an organization where cheaters aren't reprimanded.

I've personally witnessed a "Production" 1650 bike run (not necessarily at Loring) with muffler tips removed (Illegal) and lowered too.  That is not the way the bike comes and not in any way in the spirit of production rules.

Hey...you need to change your gearing to go faster...yeah....change your sprocket.  You need to remove your speed limiter....sure.  But larger motors are illegal, period.  And external mods that are not the way it came stock is also illegal, period.

Just like a certain carbon fiber GSXR 1000 with an 1140 kit was fielded at Maxton years ago in the 1000cc class...

I remember once at Maxton a guy fielded his Gen 1 ZX14....a 1352cc bike in the 1350 class....I was like WTF....apparently someone "allowed" him to run in that class because he was ONLY 2 ccs over...well heck while we're at it why don't I bring a ZX10 out and slap 636 stickers on it and have a field day in 650cc class.   rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

This Subaru has got to stop.  The responsibility first falls on the rider....and then it falls on the tech inspectors and organization and competitors.

A.
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Gemini Motorcycles
229.6 mph at Loring
201.957 mph 2-way average @ Bonneville;
203.85 @ the Maxton Mile
207.2 @ Maxton -- NAKED
200.2 mph @ TX Mile
195.6 mph on GPS @ the 9/10ths
9.4 @ 157 in the 1/4
SPARKY
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2017, 11:10:27 AM »

Woooo have I been to this movie we had to rebuild our PP GSXR 600 bike at B'ville because we had lowered it to much to put legal clip-ons ---we lost our record the next month to a Honda who was supposedly inspected by a Honda dealer. 

That is what PROTEST are for. We were not at the next meet.
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2017, 12:13:21 PM »

Greeting A

This is Tim Kelly, the race director for the LTA. I would like to address your concerns regarding the BMW.  The racer PROTESTED his own run and brought to my attention that his overbore calculation put him into the next class. The change was made immediately.  The run was moved into that class as shown below.  it is also included in our Records which are updated regularly and are available for your scrutiny.

07/14/16   21   14:11   9690   RALPHIE NAVARRO   NAVARRO RACING   MPS/G-1350/4   211.214      220.448

With regard to straps.  The Rulebook states:
7.E.1.11    Suspension height adjustment:
OEM Specification for minimum ground clearance must be met.

to clarify, this means that if the forks can be lowered in the trees or the rear is height adjustable, it can be lowered.  We interpret this so that if the rider can strap the fork and still be higher than the minimum height, it is allowed due to the fact that a preloaded front suspension is more stable under braking.  SAFE, fun, fast

As for the bodywork allegation. I can not speak to it and since there is no one in Finland, Australia, of Utah that can address the matter,  The proper procedure is to contact the LTA if you wish to Protest the record.  And FYI, "someone said" is not considered evidentiary.

The allegation about a 1352 running as a 1350 is allowed under SCTA, ECTA, USFRA, and LTA rules under the common overbore allowance.





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Tim Kelly
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jacksoni
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2017, 02:05:50 PM »

Of course the OP's comments in general apply in all our venues and all our vehicles- cars too. Letter of the rule book is sometimes missed or ignored. Have seen several examples recently at the salt. A car which has competed before in one class never qualifying for the long course but running there ( and even on the long course not qualifying for it= must with a class change requalify for the long course on the Short by exceeding 175 in the quarter).  Also, saw a car competing in the /GC class with a spoiler that was non stock and therefore illegal on the face of it. In addition, the spoiler design was illegal in that there was a gurney strip (wicker bill) on the trailing edge of the alternate/second design spoiler which is forbidden. Anyway, It was my understanding that initial tech is primarily for safety and general construction issues (at least in cars, don't know about the bikes) and that unless there is egregious diversion, no comment is made on appropriateness for a given class. Class compliance is done in impound, record certification. There is a box to be checked by the impound inspector "meets class specifications" or words to that effect. Bothers me also when people don't follow the rules. Mistakes happen, intentional stuff not so much.  Just my 2c worth.
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Jack Iliff
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shiphteey
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 03:02:40 PM »

Tim,

Thanks for your response.  Integrity is the key.

The larger engine in question going into the 1350 makes sense....but picking up 9 mph on the back half is suspect in the gas class...a little motor work alone doesn't get a 200 lb guy into 220 mph.  Enough of us have run loring to know about what you pick up with the additional 1/2 mile.  And on that bike 9 mph = Nitrous....which is fuel class....which would be illegal for MPS/G.

I read what you stated regarding lowering the front...and I couldn't disagree more with your sentiment.

Let us assume you allow a motorcycle to have its forks slid up to the maximum ability so long as the "OEM specification for minimum ground clearance must be met"....whatever that means.

Suppose I have 4" of front fork travel on my ZX6R from rest to fully compressed.  The factory is generally pretty good about giving the appropriate amount of suspension travel to avoid the headlight and cowl from colliding into the front fender.  Sliding the forks thru the triple too much without reducing the travel INTERNALLY is a great way for having the upper cowl/headlight nose section to come crashing down into the front fender, not allowing the suspension to work and potentially cause an accident due to suspension not being able to work properly.

Do people do it?  Yes.  Should people do it?  Thats a safety and tech inspection issue, not a production compliance issue.  But the fact of the matter altering ride height is not in the spirit of production rules.  Altering compression, preload and rebound is a different story...and while yes...those adjustments can have a very small effect on overall ride height, they aren't blatantly compressing the front end down with an aftermarket, non production lowering strap.

A bike slammed in the weeds is a far cry from the way it appears from the factory or production.

As for the bodywork allegation...removing the rear fender (which acts as a license plate holder) is technically changing the looks of the bike....which would again make the bike illegal for Production.

I think this starts becoming a slippery slope and you are opening pandora's box.

And a 1352cc ZX14 is the stock displacement for 2006-2011 ZX-14....are you saying all these bikes are allowed to run in 1350 now?  I don't see how they fall into the overbore rule...seeing as to how they aren't overbored...they are factory spec engines.
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Gemini Motorcycles
229.6 mph at Loring
201.957 mph 2-way average @ Bonneville;
203.85 @ the Maxton Mile
207.2 @ Maxton -- NAKED
200.2 mph @ TX Mile
195.6 mph on GPS @ the 9/10ths
9.4 @ 157 in the 1/4
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 03:09:51 PM »

Thanks for the comment Jack. As you indicate, it is impossible for the sanctioning body to inspect every vehicle before every run to ensure that every rule is being met.  Inspection is done in a strict manner for safety and a gross and obvious for class compliance.  It is ultimately to the racers integrity to ensure full compliance.  That is why there is a protest process. Others in class will notice a bike windshield that is over stock length, a wing element not to spec, etc., but the inspectors are just not able to know every rule of every class.

Same reason tanks are not sealed any longer.  It cannot be policed.

Thank you again

Tim Kelly
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Tim Kelly
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 03:38:59 PM »

Enough of us have run loring to know about what you pick up with the additional 1/2 mile.  And on that bike 9 mph = Nitrous....which is fuel class....which would be illegal for MPS/G.


Not defending anyone here, but I ran Loring back in July with both my nitrous bike and my MPS/G bike.  My stock fairing MPS/G bike picked up 8-9 mph on the back 1/2 mile and I was running VP C12 with it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 04:10:40 PM »

With regard to the GSXR that took my PB record, doesn't the missing rear fender disqualify it?  Also the lowering strap was probably obvious, so even if the ride height was within specs, the strap should not have been allowed since it is a visible modification.  It is nit picking on my part, but when did GSXRs get into the production blown category?  I wish LCTA and ECTA would add the rule that SCTA uses and require a "functional turbocharger or blower".
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 04:38:14 PM »

Ed are you saying that A  GSXR which has never come with a factory turbo charger was able to take your CX 500 record which absolutely did come with the factory turbo charger?  That is just bizarre. This invalidates all of the Loring records. If they do not do any policing or verification of the rules like a SCTA and AMA these "records"  are worthless. What is going on there? Don't the Loring officials care about the records and the validity of them?
Don
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 04:46:03 PM »

Don, that was my Ninja H2 record.  It appears from the photos to be a 2017 GSXR 1000 that has been lowered and the tail removed.  Obviously the bike was faster than what I ran with the my Ninja, but the spirit of the rules suggest a stock appearing bike.  This wasn't close.  I got bounced in tech a few years back for an aftermarket windscreen on my Ducati that was the same shape, but not the Ducati part.  I would also like to see the blower/turbo rule enforced.  

The bike in question was #469 and can be seen in many of the Facebook pictures from the weekend's racing at Loring.  Guess I can send a print along with my protest.

UPDATE: The LTA manual Rule 7.D.4.2 says "Same as Production (P) but an original brand factory installed turbocharger or supercharger is required."  Unless this was a limited edition supercharged GSXR, this record cannot stand.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 06:24:56 PM by edinlr » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 09:44:32 AM »

These thoughts/stories are good to post, at least to get clarification and promote discussion.

I noticed this set of muffler tips on a production machine, at Loring (photo from a different venue, but same bike):



Stock:



The bike also seemed very low in the front, but I didn't measure it with a tape...although I do have many of this particular bike model.  smiley

When I think of production, I just go to the rule book:

The motorcycle must appear identical in all respects to the production model
represented including the air box and exhaust system (excluding paint and
decals). Any performance modifications must be out of view.


As far as strapping the bikes down, or slamming them down in the front, I never thought that was allowed on production machines. Realistically speaking, if a strap is on the front end, how would you police the ride height? Someone simply pulls it down 3" before a pass, and pops it up on the return road. I don't think people generally are using these straps in order to improve braking; they are using them to pull the front down in order to minimize the frontal area...or affect aero in other ways...and that can make a big difference on certain bikes. A big danger, that I have seen, is when people slide the front forks up, strap, or lower them, when there is no rear height adjustment (almost all production bikes fall into this category). Then you are making some very serious, generally negative, changes to stability.

But, at the end of the day it really comes down to the specific rules of the venue, as outlined in their rule book. And the race director certainly has the final say, obviously.

Shane
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:40:52 PM by Warp12 » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »

When I read a comment attributing value to "the spirit of the rules" I lose interest.
Written rules have a single purpose: so there is no "spirit", in which subjective, noncommittal opinion determines the legality.
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Warp12
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« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2017, 11:49:25 AM »

When I read a comment attributing value to "the spirit of the rules" I lose interest.
Written rules have a single purpose: so there is no "spirit", in which subjective, noncommittal opinion determines the legality.

Unfortunately, rules, no matter how seemingly clearly written, always seem to get interpreted in a variety of ways.

Hence, this rule, from the book:

The motorcycle must appear identical in all respects to the production model
represented including the air box and exhaust system (excluding paint and
decals). Any performance modifications must be out of view.


Can be interpreted to allow visible front end strapping devices. And this rule:

OEM Specification for minimum ground clearance must be met.


can be interpreted to mean that sliding the front fork tubes up, and compressing the forks with front end straps, is allowed.

And that is where the "spirit of the rule" comes into play, imo. Meaning, why did we create this rule, and how is it intended to be applied to the class? In the case of production class machines...stated intention is for the machine to appear as close to the factory production model as possible (excepting paint, safety items, and decals, which are allowed for (and also a handlebar exception))...with no visible performance modifications. I believe that the written rules in question began with SCTA, and the verbiage has remained essentially the same? But I also believe that the words are being interpreted quite differently at the two different venues.

I understand what you are saying, though. I think when questions such as these arise, there may need to be further clarification in the rule book.

Shane

« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:34:18 PM by Warp12 » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2017, 12:11:30 PM »

I've seen a lot of production class bikes on the salt with the baffles removed but I'm not a racer so I mind my own business. You guys have a say so, I dont
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2017, 12:33:18 PM »

I've seen a lot of production class bikes on the salt with the baffles removed but I'm not a racer so I mind my own business. You guys have a say so, I dont

Interesting. Do you mean with the ends of the mufflers completely open? I wonder if that makes it through impound?

Shane
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