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Author Topic: Engine Builder Mag: Burton Brown  (Read 5751 times)
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thefrenchowl
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 04:25:18 PM »

Exactly what I said, 2 intake ports per 1 valve...

You have 2 intake valves per cylinder in that motor = 4 ports...

So, done before... if not with 2 intakes ; O )

Patrick
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2017, 06:51:23 PM »

Exactly what I said, 2 intake ports per 1 valve...

You have 2 intake valves per cylinder in that motor = 4 ports...

So, done before... if not with 2 intakes ; O )

Patrick

Patrick, you are correct to the point that pre Stowe designs used two intake tracts per cylinder. But what differentiates Stowe from all others is what Woody said i.e., the two intake tracts Stowe uses are offset one from the other per cylinder. It is not much of a change but makes all the difference in the world.

John
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2017, 07:17:00 PM »

I regret not getting to fully see the potential with the 2L John Stowe engine that is now in John Goodmans Lakester it really can have some huge potential..... we just got off on the wrong foot with some of the drivetrain stuff and we didn't ever fully recover. We learned a lot but it also cost a lot to learn..... I hope John will make it happen with his Lakester...I dont know what the G/GL record is but I think John will have his name on it with that engine...Hope its got some good suspension too......

Burton, first, let me congratulate you on entering the 200 mph club. You definitely deserve it. Looking forward to seeing you enter the 3 club chapter as well.

As Stainless mentioned, the engine ran flawlessly the entire WOS meet. We did find a little spring used to center the transaxle's sequential shift fork barrel that prevented us from accessing 3, 4 and 5th gears. We found and removed the useless spring allowing us to shift smoothly. Truly a case of a 50 cent part preventing success.

The new car is suspended front and rear. We still had problems getting the suspension set right. We got close before spinning the car and damaged the undercarriage. Lyn and I did manage to get our "B" and plan on getting that "A" license and run for record next year.

John
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 07:21:02 PM by ggl205 » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2017, 07:24:05 PM »

The Stowe design intends to create beneficial swirling turbulence in the combustion chamber? - WW in Virginia
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2017, 07:57:52 PM »

Exactly, WW.

John
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2017, 09:38:53 PM »

John,

Thanks for the nice words.....I really think we can get in the three club as well with the same combo if its ever smooth again but i'm starting to doubt it ever will be. We really never made any boost until the last pass and we went from 185-212 from the 2-2 1/4 in third gear at about 4000RPM. The course was just too rough to hang onto it and I figured we can come back again if it ever gets better. We will plan on going to Elmo next year and see what we can do there.

Was that spring in the trans when I had it here? I really only had problems in the lower gears and I think now looking back at it I probably caused some of it myself with the push truck and me..... not calculating what RPM I needed to leave the truck.......Concrete and not enough RPM = Broken 1st gear  Dead Horse Dead Horse
But when i did leave correctly then it went through 3-4-5 all great.....
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2017, 10:31:54 PM »

Burton, the offending spring was in the trans when you used it but didn't cause the problems you experienced. I did find a couple of things in the box that may have contributed to first gear failures but really hard to say for sure. No matter, it works OK now.

Having suspension really helped plant power but it did take some time to get adjustments sorted that affect handling. Those final adjustments will be taken care of before we run again.

If you can, book time in the Darko wind tunnel (Ogden, Utah). You will find out a great deal about the car, especially if you plan to go 300+ mph. Money well spent.

John
« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 10:35:31 PM by ggl205 » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2017, 10:37:53 PM »

The Stowe design intends to create beneficial swirling turbulence in the combustion chamber? - WW in Virginia

Perhaps a bit of history can help everyone visualize what is taking place in the "Stowe" type 4 valve cylinder head.

If we jump back to the mid to late 1950's, racing engines of the period typically were 2 valve crossflow or hemi designs.   The engineering dogfight was between the more efficient combustion of the wedge type crossflows,  and the increased valve area available to the hemi design.   Combustion analysis was just beginning to be understood.   Engine engineers knew that the hemi, with its' poor combustion chamber shape, required higher total ignition timing to realize proper burn and develop the best bhp.   The problem, then as now, is that high total ignition timing robs the working cylinder.   It does this because the high initial timing requirement detracts from output when the piston/rod/crank assembly has to fight its' way to TDC, prior to performing any useful work.   Engineers, designers and tuners of the period knew this and attempted to avoid this.   The problem was that the prevalent thinking of the period, deemed turns in ports to be "bad" design, the "straight shot into the cylinder" theory, if you will.   SO, for a "straight shot", valve included angles were very high.   Some examples of this thinking: Jaguar hemis; Coventry Climax F1 hemis; Ferrari road & F1 hemis, etc.  Port angles vary widely on these examples, but the BMEP's achieved were all similar @ around 185 psi.

When the first 4 valve Coventry Climax F1 engines appeared, they still used the high included angle, straight shot approach and the total timing required was still very high, limiting potential output.   BMEP remained around 185 psi proving that combustion had not improved.   BUT, these guys were not stupid, and they were aware that 2 valve OHV "wedge" engines could be built to achieve 185 psi BMEP, and they could achieve that figure with less total ignition timing, thereby inferring enhanced combustion efficiency.    Combined with data from the SOHC 2 valve designers, where the valves needed to be offset from the centerline of the chamber, the supposed "ideal", these engine designs also required less total timing to achieve the same BMEP levels.   This was where the idea that the inlet mixture "swirled" into the cylinder formed.   It was idealized as a mini "tornado" of inlet gases, promoting homogeneous mixing of the air and fuel prior to the compression stroke.   "Swirl" along with her brother "Squish" became the sought after components of efficient combustion.

And yet, the lure of increased valve area tempted the talented designers and engineers of the early 60's.   Many designs were tried, many were less than stellar, but some showed promise.    As the included valve angle went down, turns had to be incorporated into the inlet designs, but the specific outputs went up.   It was Keith Duckworth who has to be considered the father of the modern 4 valve.    His clever "pent-roof", center spark plug design was dismissed by the engineering giants of the time because it had no "swirl".    And yet, it outproduced other designs, and achieved it with a low total ignition timing requirement, thereby proving efficiency.   Duckworth theorized mixture motion into the cylinder as "barrel roll", a theory he did not share until years later.    Afterward, "barrel roll" was labeled "tumble", and was thought to supplant, and be superior to: swirl.   As we know now, there is a delicate "balancing act", between cylinder axis, valve angles (in both planes . . . ) and port axis angles.

As engineers and designers seek ever higher specific outputs from their "babies", all sorts of combustion aids have been, and are being tried.    For 2 valve wedge racing engines (think NASCAR) "swirl" and "squish" were never abandoned.  Some of the current combustion chamber designs go to great lengths to "centralize" the "swirl" and "squish" effects.

What Mr. Stowe has done with his unique 4 valve design, is to add a "swirl" component to the existing "tumble" mixture motion known to exist in 4 valve racing engines.   I'm sure that most other designers considered his approach "over-complicated", in terms of efficiency payback.    Only time will tell if the "payout" is worth the "complexity" for an OEM manufacturer.    For individual hand built racing engines, I think he has proved his point.

 cheers
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 06:46:23 AM »

John Stowe freely admits mistakes made in the engine I have in the lakester. He is almost apologetic about it and has a list of improvements he would like to make. But it should be mentioned that this is the first 2 liter version he made with no development done past this first iteration. Pretty good start for a 14.5:1 compression engine with 26 degrees of total lead. As good as this engine is, even with identified improvements, John would like to use the YB family of engines with better cylinder spacing and his cylinder head. John reckons 400 hp is very possible given facility for larger valves, improved piston domes, improved combustion chamber and bigger cams. Stowe may yet build this engine but no clear path to date.

John
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »

2 liters and 400 bhp, I wonder what's happened between this and the 1925 Miller straight eight, 1.5 liter and 300 bhp, in Frank Lockhart's racers... 2 valves and about 120 degree included angle!!!

Patrick, flogging a  Dead Horse
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« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2017, 04:07:41 PM »

Same fuel, no pressurized air?
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 01:44:47 AM »

Try 285 Hp for Frank Lockhart's blown 1500 cc Miller race car per The Golden Age of the American Racing Car by Griff Borgeson. My second question how accurate is a 1920's dyno? Best numbers for a 1500 cc F1 (Honda and BMW) during the Turbo Era 1500 Hp during qualifying, the current motors are restricted by rules. 400 Hp for a 2 liter NA four banger motor not bad (better that the first DFV Cosworth @ 375 Hp). It is at the magic number of 100 Hp per cylinder and uses a Pinto block. A pure race version is something to consider.   
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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 05:16:17 AM »

2 liters and 400 bhp, I wonder what's happened between this and the 1925 Miller straight eight, 1.5 liter and 300 bhp, in Frank Lockhart's racers... 2 valves and about 120 degree included angle!!!

Patrick, flogging a  Dead Horse

Patrick,

Once you start reviewing historical numbers, it becomes obvious that not as much progress has been made, as one might presume.    In fact I would submit that most of the "improvements" in output have been as a result of improved materials and increased rpm levels.

And if you are "flogging" a flahead, become a disciple of C.R. Axtell.    My personal advice is: Flow test, flow test, flow test.   And then, base the rest of your build design on the idea of "fulfilling" the flow-demand.    Re-structure your build geometry, if required, based on fulfillment of the demand.

 cheers
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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 05:35:12 AM »

Try 285 Hp for Frank Lockhart's blown 1500 cc Miller race car per The Golden Age of the American Racing Car by Griff Borgeson.

My second question how accurate is a 1920's dyno?

Best numbers for a 1500 cc F1 (Honda and BMW) during the Turbo Era 1500 Hp during qualifying, the current motors are restricted by rules. 400 Hp for a 2 liter NA four banger motor not bad (better that the first DFV Cosworth @ 375 Hp). It is at the magic number of 100 Hp per cylinder and uses a Pinto block. A pure race version is something to consider.   

If it was an eddy current dyno, probably pretty accurate.

If it was a friction brake with a torque arm hooked to a mechanical weight scale,   +/-  up to 10%

Early water brakes?    Huh

Keep in mind that those guys were not stupid.    They just used the measurement technologies of the times.     And in some instances, they INVENTED the measurement technology.

What is interesting to me is:

That if you start with the likes of Miller, Duesenberg, Lockhart, Offenhauser, etc, etc,
and then proceed to Warbird engines, (both WW1 and WW2),
and then to post WW2 Formula One and USA racing,
and then to the "modern era" of racing, both here and in Europe,

There is pretty much a direct line, not only of ideas and technologies, but also of the men who implemented them.

"Great minds think alike."

go figure . . . . . . . .

 cheers
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« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 02:56:38 PM »

Quote
My second question how accurate is a 1920's dyno

The Great White (or Sand...) Dyno is always accurate... Lockhart's 172mph with open wheels and tallish body at Muroc circa 1927!!!

There's also Duray's 1 hour duration 144mph record in his front drive 91ci... That's not too shabby even by today's standards...

Like the old teeshirt said... Miller dreamed it, Goosen drew it, Offenhauser built it

It all started in France before WW 1... Henry even gave us this Peugeot 8 valve vertical twin cam 500cc bike in 1914...





Patrick
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