Author Topic: Any Software for Center of Pressure?  (Read 12702 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CTSaltV

  • New folks
  • Posts: 4
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« on: September 26, 2006, 01:27:54 PM »
Does anyone know of any software that can take a solid model say in a IGES or a Solidworks file and calculate the center of pressure location?

Thanks

Offline CTSaltV

  • New folks
  • Posts: 4
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2006, 05:10:44 PM »
How do you guys figure where it is?
I hope it's not one of those things like "keep adding weight forward until you stop spinning out"  :)

John Bjorkman

  • Guest
Center of Pressure Location
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2006, 05:22:22 PM »
If you can make a sketch of the side profile of the vehicle in Solidworks and extrude to a fixed thickness. The center of pressure will be at the same point as the CG of your extrusion. Be sure to include the wheels in your sketch.

Offline CTSaltV

  • New folks
  • Posts: 4
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2006, 06:23:42 PM »
Does the top surface of the car add to the center of pressure or is it only the vertical areas?

Thanks for the suggestion, it's similar to the model rocket method of cutting out a profile from cardboard.  I'm just not sure if the horizontal surfaces influence the CP?

Thanks again.

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2006, 07:18:17 PM »
Quote from: CTSaltV
Does the top surface of the car add to the center of pressure or is it only the vertical areas?

Thanks for the suggestion, it's similar to the model rocket method of cutting out a profile from cardboard.  I'm just not sure if the horizontal surfaces influence the CP?

Thanks again.


What will have effect is the Cd looking at the side of the car.  A flat surface with sharp flat edges is going to have a higher CP than one that has rounded more "aero" edges for the same area.  

Some of this if you aren't NASA is going to probably be a "best guess" kind of thing.  At least for me it will be.

With my cheap CAD program I could draw a side view and then keep dividing it into two parts lengthwise and compare the area of those two parts.  When the area is the same then you have probably found the CP or close to it.

c ya,

Sum

Offline hotrod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • Black Horse photo
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2006, 08:39:22 PM »
The location of the center of pressure will change as the angle of attack of the air changes.

The center of pressure may move very rapidly as the car experiences cross winds so there is no simple answer that I know of.

If your car body is available in a plastic model you might be able to figure it out  with a low tech wind tunnel and by changing the point of support on the car model

Place the model on a very low friction surface. If you were to simply expose the car to a high velocity air flow it would be blown out of the tunnel. If you were to restrain the car with something like a monofilement fishing line glued to the front of the car, then the center of pressure should end up directly behind the thread attachment point. (one way to establish a nearly friction free surface is to induce some vibration in the surface the model is sitting on. Do that several times with the attachment points in different locations on the front bumper, and then draw the angles and where they intersect should be near the real cars center of pressure.

Larry

Offline John Burk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2006, 10:24:08 PM »
I did a test like this to find the center of pressure of a 18" wooden model of my streamliner .


                                       ! ------string
                                       ! ------.020" wire 8" long
   Model ---<================>                 <-- air nozzle
                                            ! ------ .020" wire 8" long
                                            O ---weight so model hangs level

The farthest back it hung and still pointed into the wind was 30.5% . If this is the same as a full sized car running on the ground is another question .
John Burk

Offline John Burk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 695
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2006, 10:32:47 PM »
As sent , the sketch in my previous message had the upper wire at the 30% point of the model and the lower at 20% .

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2006, 06:19:14 PM »
Using the CG from a solid extrusion may be very close in some cases but it can't be correct.
Different parts will read very differently on a pressure map (psi of 90 degree surface area). A concave shape such as the exposure between a tire OD and a wheel-well will be much higher than a large convex radius ending in free air such as the top of a roof.
This means that vehicles with the same profile area will have different total pressure based on the shapes and relative sizes of the components. The vehicles with "clean" parts farther back will have a CP more forward than those with the reverse.
What I can't say is whether the range of common shapes is 1% or 20%.

I have a question (which may be in the rules, sorry): are movable air control devices permitted, either automatic or manual?

Offline bobadame

  • New folks
  • Posts: 17
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2006, 06:53:34 PM »
Doesn't the angle of attack have more to do with the surfaces we're concerned with? We create wind by driving into rellativly still air.  It would seem that variations in the amount of drag over surfaces along the side of the body would also be very important.

I'm still waiting for a couple of aerodynamics books from Amazon.

Offline hotrod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • Black Horse photo
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2006, 07:54:11 PM »
Quote
Doesn't the angle of attack have more to do with the surfaces we're concerned with?



Yes that is one of the reasons why cross winds (even minor ones) can make such a huge change.

For example the high pressure area that forms in front of the windshield quickly disappears as the wind begins to move from a quartering angle. This means two things, one a slight cross wind can drastically change your front down force (or rear for that matter) and it can very rapidly shift the center of pressure fore and aft on the vehicle. A body that is very stable in dead quiet wind conditions can suddenly turn into a car that wants to turn away or into a cross wind and unloads the front tires when it is hit by a cross wind gust.

In Norbye's book Streamlining and Car Aerodynamics (long out of print copyright 1977) he covers this issue a bit in Chapter 5. He states that the center of pressure on a typical sedan is near the cowl area and on sports GT's it is near the front wheels. (streamlining tends to move the center of pressure forward as drag at the rear of the body is eliminated, unless measures are taken such as fins to increase the rear sail area).

On the 1963 Corvette its front down force due to the high pressure area at he base of the windshield essentially disappears at a wind vector of 30 degrees from the axis of the body.

According to Norbye, the early Ford GT 40 had  696 lbs lift at 200 mph, 528 lbs front and 168 at the rear. When the wind vector swung to 15 degrees off axis the cars lift went up to1170 lbs, 786 at the front, and 384 in the rear. This car had a static weight on the front wheels of only 766.5 lbs, so in cross winds the front wheels would come off the ground.

The problem was solved with the addition of a front air dam and a change in the shape of the cars nose. After those modifications front lift at 0 degrees angle of attack was 236 lbs, while rear lift increased to 272 lbs. At a 15 degree angle of attack front lift still was only 309 lbs, and rear lift was at 343 lbs.



Larry

K38

  • Guest
CP
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2006, 11:34:42 PM »
There are several programs used by model/highpower rocket guys to get Center of pressure.  I am not sure how well they would work out for a car, but there is one I use called VCP that you can google up and dowload for free.   http://v-serv.com/vcp/  This URL should work.  It may not work for you, but it might give you an idea or two.

Dwight

Offline hotrod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • Black Horse photo
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2006, 02:18:53 AM »
Looks like it might be applicable to the streamliners and lakesters of long slender body configuration. It may also give some clues on how to build a simple code to do the same on typical car body shapes.

It appears to be based on this guys work:

Quote
In March, 1967, James S. Barrowman of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Sounding Rocket Branch submitted a document entitled 'The Practical Calculation of the Aerodynamic Characteristics of Slender Finned Vehicles' as his Master's thesis to the School of Engineering and Architecture of the Catholic University of America. The document included, among other things, the simple algebraic method described above, capable of determining the center of pressure of a rocket flying subsonically and at small angles of attack to a high order of accuracy.


Larry

K38

  • Guest
CP
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2006, 02:33:06 AM »
Barrowman's work was published by Centuri, the now defunct model rocket company.  Since Model rockets can't or don't have gyros and gimbaled engines knowing were the CP is to predict stability is important especially when you get to big motors (H thru N).  we usually talk about how many calibers of stability a rocket has (how many body diameters the CP was behind the CG)  If you use a cardboard cutout of the silhouette of your car the CP should be where it balances.  This has the added benefit of being a worst case scenario as far as angle of attack.

Dwight

Offline hotrod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • Black Horse photo
Any Software for Center of Pressure?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2006, 02:51:29 AM »