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Author Topic: Stutz Blackhawk LSR John Weisel X-3 drawing  (Read 4814 times)
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edweldon
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« on: February 14, 2016, 10:48:18 PM »

I just scored a secondary blueprint, likely 20+ years old. of the subject drawing on eBay.  I knew what I was bidding on because the seller provided decent auction photos.  This could turn out to be just a cool wall hanger or it could be historically important if it turns out to be rare and uncopied.
I'm not interested in selling it or copies of it.  I'm considering a project to extract the offset data from the drawing with the best measuring process I can assemble.  Could be upward of 1000 3 coordinate data points.  Not a small effort.
My objective is to place the results of my effort as well as whatever high resolution image files I get to work from in the public domain with a wide open creative commons license.
At this point I need some help.  Has anyone here heard of or seen this drawing? If so has do you know if what I propose has already been done?
I have seen a number of small scale models of Frank Lockhart's car and even have a 1:43 resin kit to build.  There are lots of images of Jim Latin's full size replica. Reportedly it was designed based on photos of the original and after seeing a small but defining difference between the real car and the Weisel drawings I suspect that Jim and his crew didn't have access to the same drawings as me.
I have an additional request at this time.  That is to those of you who are interested in actual data for whatever building purpose you may have, computer model, wind tunnel model, full size or model car please give me some idea of the best data presentation consistent with what you can reasonably expect out of a 77 year old retired mechanical engineer (me).  An Excel workbook with a separate worksheet for each of the 24 stations on the John Weisel drawing?  How accurate?  The 1/8 size copy I have at present is off by about 1/2 of 1% on the long dimension. I think that can be fixed by the shop that is going to make my working negative copies (black line on white paper).  I plan to obtain high resolution computer files as well as prints from the upcoming copying process.  I'm happy to share these files at my cost for thumb drives and 1st class postage for folks I don't know. Anything below my email limit like 5mb will be a freebie.
If somebody's lawyer sends me a nastygram over this offer I'll have to withdraw it until I create my own drawing to give away.  Hope no one is so selfish that they have to do something like that.
Ed Weldon,  Santa Cruz Summit, CA
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2016, 11:25:40 PM »

Sounds like a great project, Ed!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-PERIOD-BLUEPRINT-FRANK-LOCKHART-BLACK-HAWK-RACE-CAR-ELEVATIONS-WEISEL-EST-/121883564425?hash=item1c60d39989%3Ag%3AFX0AAOSwX%7EdWsUAr&nma=true&si=pKDEtNr7yKwZxQNvA6mKgzflRw4%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 cheers

Mike
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2016, 11:33:03 PM »

Congrats on the terrific acquisition.
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 01:53:14 PM »

I always thought that Lockhart's car was way ahead of every other car at the time that was running for the land speed record. I always wondered if the front aero wheel covers actually turned with the wheel, it certainly appears that way and could certainly be a big contributor to its crash and Franks death. What a neat car and your drawings are priceless!! and if you got them for $84 then you have a real treasure!

Rex
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 02:53:08 PM »

Ed, that makes me want to get the French curves out and fondle them again!  grin

[I will study the pix a bit and likely pm you later!]

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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2016, 01:41:05 AM »

RE Lockhart's Blackhawk.
I always wondered if the front aero wheel covers actually turned with the wheel, it certainly appears that way and could certainly be a big contributor to its crash and Franks death. ........ Rex

Rex - I picked up in one writing that the lock to lock movement of the steering was on the order of 1/8" at some measuring point.  Will have to go back and hunt that factoid up to see exactly what was said. 
People talk about the sidewise center of pressure of a car body position relative to the center of gravity affecting the tendency of a car to spin.  This is a crude approximation; but as a guide to LSR body design I suppose it's better than nothing.  With a bulbous nose and those wheel covers oversize the Blackhawk looks like an easy spinner if measured by that standard.
I just read that Cal Poly San Luis Obispo added a moving belt to their low velocity wind tunnel.  I saw a picture of it and it looks to me like scheme for suspending a model from above by a frame with yaw axis rotation would make a neat mechanical engineering design project. That done, an examination of the aero of auto body structures including wheels and wheel assemblies such as covers at increasing increments of yaw angle would be real interesting.  With data in hand there are a number of possible graduate studies of the vehicle dynamics suggested.  So anybody here know any of the mechanical engineering or aero engineering faculty at Cal Poly?
When I start closely srudying the Weisel drawing I want to compare it with photos of the car as built an will be looking for variations in the nose and wheel coverings both pre and after the first run and crash. They had about a month or more to fix the body and could have done a lot in that interval.  They did take out the radiator and replace it with a tank to hold ice and water.
Ed Weldon
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2016, 07:50:45 AM »

Ed - Look here  < http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14769.0.html >  I'd guess that Graham Doig would be a good place to start.
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2016, 10:54:21 AM »

Ed, did you see this post: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15662.0.html
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 01:35:28 AM »

krusty – Thanks for the forum link and Graham Doig's name.  I'll be watching their progress.  Hope to sometime get down to San Louis Obispo to visit them.  Looks like they already have a lot of interest already from our LSR community.
Woody - Thanks for the link about John Bayer.  I'm already in contact with him and the ball is currently in my court to send him a bunch of screen capture images from the eBay auctions of Zenas Weisel's collection.
Today I sent a 16mm film copy of the newsreel showing the 4th run crash that Killed Frank Lockhart to get it converted to DVD.  That done I have hopes of getting some help extracting individual frames showing the car and wheel movement in the first moments of the crash.  Not sure exactly where I'll go with that.  But I am interested in the dynamics of spins and the relationship of those vehicle motion to the aero characteristics of the car.  We have a lot of anecdote evidence and the resultant design recommendations.  But I kinda doubt there has been useful wind tunnel data or useful even attempts at analysis of a moving car initiating rotation about the yaw axis while subjected to significant aero forces.
Tomorrow I'm going to take my two Blackhawk blueprints from the Weisel collection to a local shop in San Jose whose proprietor has a large format flat bed scanner and substantial local reputation for outstanding printing work.  I want negative working copies that I can manhandle a bit and subject to various measurements as well as an effort to trace the line work onto vellum.  I'm a competent pencil draftsman with good drafting equipment.  I'm hoping to get easier to read negative prints and files of both originals and negatives on a thumb drive to load into my computer as well as share. 
And I'll be experimenting with ways to best lift contour measurements from the drawings.  Will a 12” dial caliper, a good mayline straightedge on my drawing board and magnifying lenses be too cumbersome or inaccurate.  I could finish mounting the DRO on my milling machine and use my neat little laser “edge finder” mounted in the spindle to find the points on the drawing contour lines. 
It's a cheap DRO without any output connections.  Means han writing or keyboard entering each measurement.  Sure would be nice to be able to load the coordinates directly into a spreadsheet from which they could be loaded into a 2d CAD or 3d solid modeler...... Anybody want to try that?  I'll be delighted to share my drawing files if they are any good.  Then you can do it yourself or vectorize the drawing lines if you know how and have the right software.
My name doesn't have to be on this.   What I want is for the historic elements here to be as widely available as possible to be preserved and actually get used. 
Got a good working solid model package?  Then turn it into small 3d model prints and sell them off Shapeways.  1:43 would be perfect.  Or build bucks for a full size car or a 1/3-1/2 scale wind tunnel model.  Stretch the lateral dimensions to design a 2 seater.   Design a Bonneville lakester with open wheels.  Raise the headrest fairing up to form a stabilizing fin and angle the nose down to improve anti spin stability.  Experiment with rear wheel enclosures.  Experiment with front wheel enclosures (if the tech guys will let you run them)
Or here's one:  Create a near full size graphic, left and right sides for your trailer.  Or if you are really courageous both sides of a suitably shaped modern sedan everyday driver. I saw a small white Beemer sedan today they would look real cool on, along with some large wheels and aluminum disks to narrow the dark visible gaps between the tires and fenders.
Blue sky stuff here.  Let's see what tomorrow's trip to the scanner printer produces......... Ed Weldon
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 10:29:26 AM »

"But I kinda doubt there has been useful wind tunnel data or useful even attempts at analysis of a moving car initiating rotation about the yaw axis while subjected to significant aero forces."

Ed;

There is wind tunnel data on yaw but probably not to the extent you are talking about.

I have full-scale wind tunnel test data on a Ford GT40 at +/-5 degrees of yaw and a Porsche 917K at 0,5, & 10 degrees of yaw.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2016, 01:43:58 AM »

Neil - Is the data on the wind tunnel tests or a summary staement of it something it's practical to share with me?  What I'm especially interested in is any description and commentary regarding the test setup and and force sensing.
On another subject -  My trip to the scanner/printer downtown was delayed by other family priorities.  So hopefully Monday and also that he can do the work while I wait.
Ed Weldon
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2016, 01:28:27 PM »

Ed;

PM sent.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 12:31:15 AM »

I finally got the Weisel Blackhawk drawings into the local expert, Superior Color Lab, a little "hole in the wall" on Lincoln Ave in San Jose, CA, on Thursday 2/26 and am waiting for Rich to call me back.  Great local reputation; so I don't want to pester him. Soon as I pick the old and new prints and computer files up from him I'll post good findings or bad news.  We'll see.  I also took the 16mm newsreel clip of the crash to another source Rich recommended to get a DVD made out of it.  I'm told that someone with the right software can freeze individual frames.  That should produce an interesting investigation.  There's a well distributed diagram produced by the 1928 crash investigators that's fairly widely published that will be there for comparison.
Ed Weldon
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2016, 08:06:30 AM »

RE Lockhart's Blackhawk.
I always wondered if the front aero wheel covers actually turned with the wheel, it certainly appears that way and could certainly be a big contributor to its crash and Franks death. ........ Rex

Rex - I picked up in one writing that the lock to lock movement of the steering was on the order of 1/8" at some measuring point.  Will have to go back and hunt that factoid up to see exactly what was said. 
People talk about the sidewise center of pressure of a car body position relative to the center of gravity affecting the tendency of a car to spin.  This is a crude approximation; but as a guide to LSR body design I suppose it's better than nothing.  With a bulbous nose and those wheel covers oversize the Blackhawk looks like an easy spinner if measured by that standard.
I just read that Cal Poly San Luis Obispo added a moving belt to their low velocity wind tunnel.  I saw a picture of it and it looks to me like scheme for suspending a model from above by a frame with yaw axis rotation would make a neat mechanical engineering design project. That done, an examination of the aero of auto body structures including wheels and wheel assemblies such as covers at increasing increments of yaw angle would be real interesting.  With data in hand there are a number of possible graduate studies of the vehicle dynamics suggested.  So anybody here know any of the mechanical engineering or aero engineering faculty at Cal Poly?
When I start closely srudying the Weisel drawing I want to compare it with photos of the car as built an will be looking for variations in the nose and wheel coverings both pre and after the first run and crash. They had about a month or more to fix the body and could have done a lot in that interval.  They did take out the radiator and replace it with a tank to hold ice and water.
Ed Weldon

Hello Rex and Ed, sorry for a big thread bump here on my first post!

From the photographic evidence I have so far found, I would suggest the front wheel fairings turned with the wheel hubs. There are shots of the inner face of the fairings clearly attached to the brake backplate. The brake shoe posts can be seen on the backplate. The bolts in the centre on the outer face attached to a hub ring. I assume this hub ring was ball raced so it would be independant to wheel rotation. I have read somewhere that the turning circle was something like 1/2 mile! I find this hard to believe, given the fact the vehicle had to turn 180 degrees at the end of each run and that Lockhart would have had to make steering corrections to avoid the surf on the beach. If you watch the period aerial footage he was very close to the waves.  I assume he was trying to keep on the wet sand which would be more compacted?

John S.
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