Author Topic: Ram Air V Wind Resistance  (Read 8309 times)

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dirtydave

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« on: September 12, 2006, 08:27:43 AM »
Interested to know any thought on weather an intake scope would make enough power to overcome the air Resistance it creates,
Does any one have any Air box pressure reading from 180mph Thru to the 230 mph range, I was thinkin 180mph would be about 4 pound? does it increase much after then,,?/

Offline gazza414

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2006, 11:23:50 AM »
Dave , buy a simple fluid dynamics text book and the answer will be found ..theoretical any way....you'll achieve less.
1 FAST HAYABUSA 217.443mph so far
9 Official Timeslips over 200mph
Very much the apprentice

Offline desotoman

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2006, 11:56:02 AM »
Dirty Dave,
   
There?s a neat chart in August ?06 SPORT AVIATION describing ram air pressure from 0-450 knots.

100 knots = .24 psi, 150 = .54, 200 = .96, 250 = 1.52, 300 = 2.23

450 knots = 5.34 psi

I hope this helps,
Tom G.

PS. Here is a chart to help convert knots to mph.

Conversion table for
knots to miles per hour  
KTS to MPH 5 Knots = 5.8 MPH
10 Knots = 11.5 MPH
15 Knots = 17.3 MPH
20 Knots = 23.0 MPH
25 Knots = 28.8 MPH
30 Knots = 34.6 MPH
35 Knots = 40.3 MPH
40 Knots = 46.1 MPH
45 Knots = 51.8 MPH
50 Knots = 57.6 MPH
55 Knots = 63.4 MPH
60 Knots = 69.1 MPH
65 Knots = 74.9 MPH
70 Knots = 80.6 MPH
75 Knots = 86.4 MPH
80 Knots = 92.2 MPH
85 Knots = 97.9 MPH
90 Knots = 103.7 MPH
95 Knots = 109.4 MPH
100 Knots = 115.2 MPH
105 Knots = 121.0 MPH
110 Knots = 126.7 MPH
115 Knots = 132.5 MPH
120 Knots = 138.2 MPH
125 Knots = 144.0 MPH
130 Knots = 149.8 MPH
135 Knots = 155.5 MPH
140 Knots = 161.3 MPH
145 Knots = 167.0 MPH
150 Knots = 172.8 MPH
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2006, 08:00:05 PM »
The formula is MPH^2*0.0000176.
Air is considered uncompressible at low speeds, so the pressure isn't as much as you would think. It certainly isn't going to supercharge the engine.

But don't think it won't produce horsepower. When the intake valve opens the piston pulls a vacuum compared to atmospheric pressure. Depending on the engine size and the intake plumbing, you can see -.5 to -2.0 psi.

There are three ways to help cope with this.
1. Supercharger. Pushing the air in under pressure is always a good thing.
2. Intake ram air tuning. When the intake valve closes, the air rushing in the intake has no place to go and causes a reverse pressure wave. A tuned stack can take advantage of this to reflect the wave back down the intake just as the intake valve is opening to push air into the cylinder. Only works at one RPM.
3. Ram air intake. When you look at the massive intake on an NHRA pro stocker, you would think he must be getting 50 psi on the top end. Nope. The size is relative to the amount of air the engine needs. The larger you get, the more drag and the drag exceeds the horsepower created. Don?t ignore that .396 psi at 150 mph! The engine is gasping for air with no ram air, and the ram air can take that slight negative pressure and turn it slightly positive. Horsepower and speed are never gained in huge amounts, but done in very small increments of work. Ram air is one of those dyno killers. You can't duplicate the air flow over the car into the intake on a dyno.

From Sumners web page:
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-tburkland-1.html

Quote

John Burk presented the following two posts on Landracing.com in regards as how you figure the scoop inlet opening size for a motor:


For calculating the size of the scoop inlet you need to find how many inches you go in two
turns of the engine . Say you have a 300 ci 200 mph roadster with a 3.5:1 rear and 30"
tires . In two turns of the engine the wheels turn .57 times (2 divided by 3.5) . The tires
are 94.2" around (30 x 3.14). So in two turns of the engine the roadster moves 53.7"
(94.2 x .57) . The 300 ci x 53.7" long bar of air that got scooped up in 2 turns of the
engine has a cross-section of 5.6 sq. in. (300 ci divided by 53.7") . The opening in the scoop
should be 2.67" dia. or anything with 5.6 sq. in. This is for an unblown engine and for a
trans with a 1:1 high gear . We'll forget about details like tire growth and engine
volumetric efficiency but we should add 5% (5.6 + 5% = 5.88 sq. in.) for the supercharge
effect we've gained at 200 mph .

(I then asked how you figure the drop of air speed in the inlet (scoop) if the cross-section of the inlet increases towards the motor)
Sum
If you want the air to slow from 200 mph to 40 mph (1/5 the speed) the area needs to
increase 5 times . If the inlet is 5 sq.in. it should increase to 25 sq. in.
If the inlet is 2 1/2" round (4.9 sq.in.) 5 times that is 24.53 sq.in. and the dia of that is
5.59".
The area of a circle is dia.x dia.x .785
The dia of an area is the area divided by .785 and the square root of that (divide before
you hit the square root button).

By the way I think the inlet needs to be radiused for the lower gears when all the air
doesn't come from straight ahead .
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

JohnR

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 09:53:11 PM »
The numbers I have measured up to 200 MPH match desotomans post pretty well.

Offline Sumner

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2006, 10:51:27 PM »
Quote from: JohnR
The numbers I have measured up to 200 MPH match desotomans post pretty well.


Hey John what happened to the dead horse I loaned you :wink: .

One thing about the scoop as far as I've been able to tell is it just isn't there to get air to the motor, but can help or hurt you aero wise.

If it is too large and the motor can't take the air then it looks as if the air will build up in front of it and go around it in a less than aerodynamic manner resulting in drag.  If it is just right then the air that doesn't enter it will move on past it with less drag and not be piled up in front of it.

c ya, Sum

JohnR

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2006, 11:45:22 PM »
Quote from: Sumner
Hey John what happened to the dead horse I loaned you :wink:


Even I have a limit to how many times I can beat a dead horse :o

Offline thundair

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2006, 11:25:40 AM »
Dean
Just wanted to mention that a reversion wave happens several times as RPM increases. Although it will be first, second and third waves. The worst case would be a negative wave at the intake valve as it was opening.
There are empirical formulas for the intake length to start with, then it would be best to use a dyno to get it right.

Back to the original question about ram air; it would be great if you could place the opening in an aerodynamic position to have little or no affect on drag. Like Kawasaki and others taking the air right off the nose, this has little affect on the trail. That is kind of the intention of a NACA duct.

Cheers

Quote
2. Intake ram air tuning. When the intake valve closes, the air rushing in the intake has no place to go and causes a reverse pressure wave. A tuned stack can take advantage of this to reflect the wave back down the intake just as the intake valve is opening to push air into the cylinder. Only works at one RPM.

Offline 1212FBGS

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Ram Air V Wind Resistance
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2006, 12:03:30 PM »
the NACA styled duct that is popular and mostly used by Kawi on there latest sport bike, was originally designed to separate dirt and water on a sub-sonic sub-surface intake. this NACA shape in best placed on a laminar flow surface. It is a cool shape and probably why Kawi's stylist decided to use it. the placement is at a stagnation point in the front of a fairing, an even and constant pressure, not the highest pressure but the most constant and less susceptible to shier and other variables. not my best choice for placement but good for a fuel injected production bike.When air box pressure and volume exceed the volumetric efficacy of your motor, it will pack and create a boundary layer at the duct intake. I am assuming you want to add intake ducts to your open bike, they could aid you in streamlining, in the SCTA the tech guys wont let you put anything in front of the rider ( helmet/hand grips) so you might check with your tech guys and see what you can get away with. in a nut shell my answer is "yes do it ".
Kent