Author Topic: Selecting gear ratios  (Read 13791 times)

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 01:20:12 AM »
TR X RA= FDR

.84 x 3.54= 2.97

In my opinion   You are geared almost perfect now--- you just need a bunch more RPM and proabably heads and cam and valve springs  just need to be able to pull the OD and 28" tires  That final step of 16% should let you keep a good eng in it's power band.  You need an eng you can shift at 8000-8500
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 05:54:41 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 09:57:32 AM »
So to be in the safe range... build an engine with 650 HP that revs to 8000.... or just buy on old nascar motor....  :-D
have fun with your project...  :cheers:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline fredvance

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2015, 11:05:13 AM »
I set my shift light for peak HP, and gear for desired speed at peak HP rpm, or slightly over. I think peak torque has nothing to do with this equasion. :-D
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 12:15:35 PM »
 SS1  said

"So to be in the safe range... build an engine with 650 HP that revs to 8000.... or just buy on old nascar motor....  grin   have fun with your project...  cheers  " 

that should get it done !!!!!!!!!!!

Sparky >  Fred    by definition:         RPM X Torque/5252= HP


Its all about RPM and torque----  HP is just what we call the relationship!

   
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 01:19:35 PM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline RebekahsZ

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2015, 01:01:00 AM »
I'm researching cams.  But, while I'm searching things: where do I start looking for these "old NASCAR motors?"

« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 01:18:56 AM by SPARKY »

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 01:19:32 AM »
Google and E-bay !
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline RebekahsZ

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2015, 02:00:47 PM »
Thanks-found a few used NASCAR engines ($-ouch!). Likely to go forced induction before I go that route.
fredvance-thanks for your clear and concise advice. That's kinda the bottom line I was looking for, though I learned something from everybody.

Offline fredvance

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2015, 03:30:18 PM »
Glad I could be of some help.
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
Vance&Forstall Racing
WOS 2011 235+MPH
Engine by Knecum, Tuned by Johnny Cheese.
Sponsers Catalyst Composites, Johnny Cheese Perf, Knecum Racing Engines, Murray Headers, Carpenter Racing

Offline stay`tee

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2015, 04:27:25 PM »
I set my shift light for peak HP, and gear for desired speed at peak HP rpm, or slightly over. I think peak torque has nothing to do with this equasion. :-D

given that the "socially accepted slippage" on salt is 6%. Is there an allowance made for this slippage  :?, ie at 200mph 6% equates to 12mph, in this situation do we gear for 212mph at peak HP rpm so as to achieve our desired 200mph speed  :?
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Offline fredvance

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2015, 07:00:57 PM »
I gear for the speed I want to run, no adjustment for slippage
WORLDS FASTEST PRODUCTION MOTORCYCLE 213.470
Vance&Forstall Racing
WOS 2011 235+MPH
Engine by Knecum, Tuned by Johnny Cheese.
Sponsers Catalyst Composites, Johnny Cheese Perf, Knecum Racing Engines, Murray Headers, Carpenter Racing

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2015, 10:29:50 PM »
I gear for the speed I want to run that gives me the most TE based on my engs. dyno chart and the speed I wan to run.

But  I also try to design the eng to what available gear/tire combos that are available
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2015, 11:14:34 PM »
We did a lot of dyno work to make the power band as broad as possible, and Mark designed a bullet-proof valvetrain so it could pull well past the power band in the lower gears and it would fall back to where we needed it once we were in top gear.

I've got a timing slip and a WOS certificate that shows this approach works pretty well.
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Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2015, 11:30:49 PM »
Make a spreadsheet (and graph) of drive wheel thrust available, for each gear in turn.    This will give you a set of overlapping curves, one for each gear ratio.   As you go up through the gears, you will notice that there is less thrust is available, the reason for the top out limit of a vehicle.   Selecting effective shift points is very obvious with this type of graph.

When rear wheel thrust available = total drag power required, you are done accelerating.   A diff/trans/overdrive ratio change MAY change your top speed, slightly, but without more bhp, you are done.

Most vehicles accelerate best using the GREATEST AREA UNDER THE POWER CURVE.   This may or may not include peak torque.   It is going to depend on the shape of your power curve.   Ie, wide and relatively flat Vs. narrow and peaky.   You want to make an informed choice here.

The formula required is available in several places, I think Sumner has it somewhere on his pages, it is in several vehicle dynamics text books and in Carroll Smith's tome as well.   You might be rewarded by a Google search.

This is a pointless exercise without an ACCURATE dyno sheet with torque and bhp curves.   Your current engine's bhp, tq & gearing tells you where you are.    Some sort of plan for future changes is an excellent idea.

To quote one of my mentors:
"Information based decision making is ALWAYS better than Voodoo and killing chickens at midnight."    It has always worked well for me, thank you HB2!

My advice is:  Start keeping a notebook, get a laptop and some racing specific software, or freeware.    MOST of the time, you get what you pay for.    You can keep good records in a notebook by hand, for next to nothing.   Well, except for the discipline to actually do it.    BTW, if you are computer savvy, you can do a lot of analysis with Excel, especially if you can write your own formulas.

 :cheers:
Fordboy

P.S.  I know at least one guy on this board who got pretty good results with the information based approach.   He posted just prior to me.
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2015, 12:24:24 AM »
what I call TE is what FB calls tire thrust

as the old add used to say "where the rubber meets the road"
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Selecting gear ratios
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2015, 12:52:08 AM »
Further to Fordboy’s response #27, instead of plotting thrust, plot the horsepower (from the dyno curve) versus vehicle speed as determined by the rpm, driveline ratios and tires for each gear.  This will also give a pattern of curves which make determining shift points a trivial exercise.  Adding the “horsepower required” curve, from rolling drag and aero drag will then intersect the the power available curve, generally on the tallest gear ratio and that will be the terminal speed possible with that set-up.  Done on a worksheet such as Excel, gear ratios, rear end ratios, tire rollout etc can then be easily varied to optimize acceleration and top speed.  Because, as Fordboy stated, “Most vehicles accelerate best using the GREATEST AREA UNDER THE POWER CURVE” and with the above, you have a picture of that.

As for Sparky’s obsession with tractive effort:
Quote
I gear for the speed I want to run that gives me the most TE based on my engs. dyno chart and the speed I wan to run.


If he is really doing what he says here, he is hurting himself, since the maximum tractive effort will occur at torque max, which is always down the power curve from the peak power, and POWER is what it is all about.