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Author Topic: Ford BA GT Ute  (Read 2927 times)
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Aussieute
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« on: April 14, 2015, 08:49:51 AM »

Hello fellow racers,

First of all I would like to start by saying great forum, a lot of valuable information, opinion and ideas, which has led me to ask you guys for advice.

Vehicle: Ford BA GT Ute
Engine: 5.4 Modular DOHC
Forced Induction: vortech V7
Gearbox: Built T56 with paddle air shift
Weight 6200 Lb

Currently the ute is the record holder in its class over 210 mph on a last years salt, however this year we had an engine failure and dropped a cylinder, the 10 year old engine has finally given up the ghost. Now the  owner wants to go crazy and push the boundaries here in Australia, however there arnt many cars here that can do the speeds he wants to achieve.

Engine category is C size, and the owner wants to stay C class, however we are in discussions in regards to engine, this is what we are thinking of going and aiming for 2500-3000hp

We are discussing at the moment to go with the following, what's your opinion on this combo

Mmr engine block 5.4 grout filled
Billet crankshaft
Oliver rods steel
Custom Pistons from Ross, diamond, je or wiseco.
Copper head gaskets
Camshafts
Grout filled cylinder heads
Pro charger f3r or f4
Methanol fuel
Dry sump

I personally would like to see a billet block and heads, with 5/8 heads studs, larger main studs etc etc, than what can be fitted to the standard block and heads, which are 3/8 in diameter.

Currently the diff in the vehicle is a a std diff with 3.36's and floater kit, we are currently talking about fitting a winters differential to the vehicle, or opting to go with a 9".

The plan is to make as much power with the engine as possible, running it initially at 40% of its power output and make sure the chassis behaves correctly then, slowly step it up to a higher power level later. Even change engine size into B class with another set of Pistons, and move up to another class.

We all know a drag car running for 6 seconds is nothing like land speed racing, so this engine has to last.


Will post up pics and video's soon
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Aussieute
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 09:16:28 AM »

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Aussieute
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 09:17:47 AM »

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Aussieute
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 09:19:26 AM »

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Dynoroom
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 09:41:01 AM »

So how much hp do you think it took for you to run 210 in the vehicle?

How fast do you want to run in this vehicle?


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Michael LeFevers
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Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...
manta22
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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 09:55:57 AM »

Can a grout-filled block get rid of the heat of running 5 miles WOT?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Aussieute
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2015, 10:09:48 AM »

Can a grout-filled block get rid of the heat of running 5 miles WOT?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

That's a good question, I was hoping for this to come up, I brought this up aswell today with the owner, anyone on here running a full solid block, that you are aware off.
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Aussieute
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 10:35:47 AM »

So how much hp do you think it took for you to run 210 in the vehicle?

How fast do you want to run in this vehicle?




According to our calculations from last year was approx 720hp to do 210, however the salt conditions were very poor last year. Dropping 30 mph through the 3-4 mile markers and then having to get back up to speed again.

As fast as the car will allow him to go, I'm sure once he goes 250mph, next aim will be to go 300mph and keep going faster and faster.

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Dynoroom
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 10:56:25 AM »

So how much hp do you think it took for you to run 210 in the vehicle?

How fast do you want to run in this vehicle?

According to our calculations from last year was approx 720hp to do 210, however the salt conditions were very poor last year. Dropping 30 mph through the 3-4 mile markers and then having to get back up to speed again.

As fast as the car will allow him to go, I'm sure once he goes 250mph, next aim will be to go 300mph and keep going faster and faster.


Well in my humble opinion....

You don't know what it took to run 210 mph. So all of you "guess-t-mates" are off. If your friend is willing to spend the money on an engine program the first thing you should do is dyno the package you have to know where you are.

My experience at Bonneville (4200', you guys are near sea level) has shown ~600-650 hp depending on aero (yours looks good) to run in that speed range turbocharged. I know someone with a '92 firebird that went 265 mph on about 850 hp and 300 mph with only  shocked 1400 hp. So the 2500+ is nice to have but might be overkill and tough on durability. Not that you can't do it, but should you do it? 

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Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

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Dynoroom
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2015, 10:57:42 AM »

Can a grout-filled block get rid of the heat of running 5 miles WOT?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

That's a good question, I was hoping for this to come up, I brought this up aswell today with the owner, anyone on here running a full solid block, that you are aware off.

Not on gasoline...
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Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...
Aussieute
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 11:28:49 AM »

So how much hp do you think it took for you to run 210 in the vehicle?

How fast do you want to run in this vehicle?

According to our calculations from last year was approx 720hp to do 210, however the salt conditions were very poor last year. Dropping 30 mph through the 3-4 mile markers and then having to get back up to speed again.

As fast as the car will allow him to go, I'm sure once he goes 250mph, next aim will be to go 300mph and keep going faster and faster.


Well in my humble opinion....

You don't know what it took to run 210 mph. So all of you "guess-t-mates" are off. If your friend is willing to spend the money on an engine program the first thing you should do is dyno the package you have to know where you are.

My experience at Bonneville (4200', you guys are near sea level) has shown ~600-650 hp depending on aero (yours looks good) to run in that speed range turbocharged. I know someone with a '92 firebird that went 265 mph on about 850 hp and 300 mph with only  shocked 1400 hp. So the 2500+ is nice to have but might be overkill and tough on durability. Not that you can't do it, but should you do it? 



How about I go into it a lot more, the vehicle is equiped with a haltech/race pack system, so we do have data.
We monitor the following egt's, wbo2, throttle, map, engine rpm, front wheel speed, gps speed, tailshaft speed, shock travel, ambient temp, blower temp, ice tank temp, IAT into engine, fuel pressure. The only thing we arnt monitoring is steering wheel angle....

According to the data from last year max hp used was 720hp, due to the conditions last year, speed through the 3-4 mph markers were down to 165-170 mph then through to the 5 mile back up over 200mph. Excessive wheel spin throughout the entire run.

The engine makes 900hp@ flywheel and 1030hp @ flywheel with small shot of NOS, we know the vehicle is heavy at 6200lb, we were one of the only few that didn't spin last year.
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Aussieute
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 11:38:05 AM »

Can a grout-filled block get rid of the heat of running 5 miles WOT?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

That's a good question, I was hoping for this to come up, I brought this up aswell today with the owner, anyone on here running a full solid block, that you are aware off.

Not on gasoline...

So in reference to this comment, obviously not running on gasoline, using methanol, you must have data on lower block temperatures over the 5 miles at WOT. Do you care to share your findings, eg ambient temperatures, egt's, aluminium block temperature. Over here on the Lake we see ambient temperatures up to 48 deg C (eg 120 deg F) in your term.
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 12:27:31 PM »

There are several very fast cars that run billet blocks, the no. 911 blown fuel roadster and Danny Thompson's streamliner come to mind. Both are dependent on large amounts of fuel to cool the engine(s) something that may not be possible with an electronic fuel injection. Grouting the block and heads is like adding a pretty good insulation material between the inter working parts of the engine,cylinder walls, combustion chambers etc and the outside of the block which can transfer some heat to the air and is also a great heat sink to adsorb heat. Most grout materials are some what silicon based and really have a high resistance to transferring heat. My first reaction is that it may not be a great idea on an engine that is to run at near max hp for several minutes, you will be concentrating heat in the combustion area and may be seeing temperatures that the engine cannot live with.

One option that I have seen is to run the cooling system with water in it at a very high pressure, 150-200 psi. This pressure will actually act as an external force on both the cylinders and heads to assist them in resisting combustion pressures that you will see when making high blower assisted horsepower. This requires complete sealing of the block, pipe plugging the expansion holes and dry decking the heads and of course all high pressure/temperature external plumbing and all gasket seals replace with viton O rings. This method was used by Electromotive Engineering on their turbo Datsun straight six engines in the early 80s. They were making 1000 hp+ from an approx 200 cu inch Datsun 300 ZX straight six and they were reliable!

If you are successful at making that kind of HP you will be looking for a completely different drive train. I would suggest reading complete the JL22/bveller "Getting ready for Bonneville" thread as they ARE making 2500 hp++ and you can see the effort that it takes to hold this type of power and get it connected to the ground.

Rex   
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Rex

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gasblender37
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2015, 12:29:54 PM »

As far as head studs go,  MMR makes a kit. Here is the info.
MMR 3000 9/16" to 1/2" Race Headstud kit. End head gasket failure on high HP 1500-3500HP Modular applications with this custom stud kit. This kit is a much larger and beefier stud that accepts up to 140lbs torque vs 85lbs on a std ARP head stud. Requires block to be tapped for 9/16 at deck surface.. Includes 9/16 tap. Honing cylinder after installation highly recommended.
Good Luck,
Skip
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Skip

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"I reckon if this stuff was easy, everyone would be settin' records"
Dynoroom
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2015, 01:31:15 PM »

Missed the part in your opening statement about running methanol.  embarassed

The remainder of my answer is still the same. You used 720 hp to go 210 do to wheel spin in the middle miles. You only likely need 600+ to go that fast otherwise. Surprised that you had so much trouble with wheel spin at that weight. Sometimes we go faster with less power (no wheel spin) so maybe a boost controller & or traction control is in your future.
The Firebird weighed 5200 lbs, ran on gasoline, made 1400 hp on 18 lbs boost and went 300 mph.
More power will likely get you those numbers + sooner.....  smiley   

Good Luck on your project.  cool

A note about solid blocks. They are running a lot of fuel through them to help keep them cool. Most over 40 gallons a pass. And some of those don't carry enough fuel to run the full 5 miles....
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Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...
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