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Author Topic: More New Cars for Bonneville  (Read 12286 times)
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Dynoroom
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« on: August 03, 2006, 04:12:21 PM »

This Lakester should be ready for '07
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Michael LeFevers
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2006, 05:07:24 PM »

so who will get the first ride??? Seth, Tanis, Lee??? Maybe even you Mike???

Just let seth know that if he needs a guinea pig for the first runs ill be available...

Jon
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Glen
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2006, 05:51:39 PM »

Get in line Jon Cheesy
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Glen
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2006, 05:53:52 PM »

THere's no room for retired timers...

Jon
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Sumner
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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2006, 05:55:29 PM »

Thanks for posting the pictures.  I've been dying to see what it was going to look like.  The back takes a lot from the old car.  Driver up front now that will be different for them.  And after I took cues from their old car and got my tire/wheels away from the body now they tuck theirs in next to the body (at least in the back) cry .  

What a beautiful body though smiley  smiley

From the size of the car/motor looks like they are aiming at trying to be the fastest lakester on the planet and I'm sure they will succeed at that goal Cheesy .

I already can't wait to see it run,

Sum
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Rex Schimmer
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2006, 06:34:31 PM »

From the pictures the motor looks like a big block, Seth must be going for the A and AA records. Great looking car and it is pretty obvious that it is going to be a real "work of art". Will this be the first 400 mph lakster?
Regardless of what LeFever's by line says, to 400 in a lakester you got to be AERO!! At 400 mph it could takes almost 200 hp to just push one wheel/tire through the air, that's 800 HP total!!!!

I think that Seth's old car was originally the Bennett-Rochlitzer-Joehnk car built around 60-61. Bob Joehnk had a garage in Santa Barbara. The basic shape was an F86 drop tank with the rear body built by Eddie Kuzma. Eddie was an Indy car builder and a master with aluminum.

You know it will be fast!!

Rex
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2006, 08:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Rex Schimmer
....................Regardless of what LeFever's by line says, to 400 in a lakester you got to be AERO!! At 400 mph it could takes almost 200 hp to just push one wheel/tire through the air, that's 800 HP total!!!!.........................Rex


If the wheels/tires are in line with each other that should be less (800HP).  I'm still wondering about the distance between things and how it effects the HP needed.  If one wheel/tire was say a foot behind the other one then they should be seeing almost the same air (according to one of my aero books) and would probably not need much more in the way of HP than if there was only the front wheel/tire.  Now if you put them 50 feet apart I would think it would be the same as pushing 4 wheels/tires through the air.  So at what point do they stop looking like one set of tires (the fronts) and start looking like two totally separate sets of tires???

c ya soon Rex Cheesy ,

Sum
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2006, 08:45:54 PM »

Quote from: Sumner
[ So at what point do they stop looking like one set of tires (the fronts) and start looking like two totally separate sets of tires???

Sum


My information say's 1 1/2 tire dia's.
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Michael LeFevers
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2006, 10:52:02 PM »

Quote from: Dynoroom
Quote from: Sumner
[ So at what point do they stop looking like one set of tires (the fronts) and start looking like two totally separate sets of tires???

Sum


My information say's 1 1/2 tire dia's.


Mike are you saying that if you have, say a tire with a 28 inch diameter (front tire), then if the tire behind it (rear tire) is more than 42 inches behind it that it makes no difference if the second tire is directly behind it or at a different track width as far as the aero drag of the two tires???

Thanks,

Sum
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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2006, 11:50:35 PM »

Does anybody have a picture or a diagram that shows what the air looks like around a tire on the ground, rolling at speeds of 100, 200 and /or 300 MPH? Or know where I can find one?

  Harv
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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2006, 02:55:48 PM »

It's a nice and clean design, cockpit and rear end are real fine, but the nose, may be you like to check this for some improvements.

I'm a little bit surprised about the nose design, this nose will create not to much necessary downforce on the front.
Looks to my opinion also a little bit too small the the rest of the car shape.

For the finish of the car....I have no fear...the other was/are absolute beauties Cheesy
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Pork Pie

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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2006, 03:07:19 PM »

it makes no difference if the second tire is directly behind it or at a different track width as far as the aero drag of the two tires???

aero drag  huh of open turning wheels....there is no question about aero drag...the only what you can do, cover the inside and outside so good as possible....like moon disc's.....all the other...call it turbulences.... wink
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Sumner
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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2006, 04:26:25 PM »

A while back I was reading (I think this book -- AERODYNAMICS for Racing and Performance Cars by Forces Aird) and he was talking about open wheel cars in general and stated if the car had a large wide rear tire you didn't gain much (aero wise) from putting a smaller and/or narrower tire on the front as the air would see the larger tire.

From this statement I felt that to go with a smaller and/or narrower tire in the front offered no advantage and that you should try and keep the tires in line with each other.  Of course just because something is written in a book doesn't make it necessarily correct.

And even if the above was true for tires that are not separated by much distance at some distance it would no longer apply and this concerned me with our long wheel base LSR cars.

The NASCAR guys claim (at least the announcers do) that at a track like Daytona the cars can feel the draft as far as 12-18 car lengths back.  Further than that and they "loose the draft" and slow down.  So maybe the back tire is in some kind of "draft" from the front tire even if it is back there 12-15 feet (car wheelbase).

If two cars in the draft can run faster than one by itself, maybe two tires in the draft can run faster than one rolleyes .  Maybe running tires all the way down the side of the car would be faster yet  Cheesy .  Dan, how many tire/wheels can you run???

c ya, Sum
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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2006, 06:31:50 PM »

Most of the info on wheel/tires in free air are for road racing tires, short, wide and with sharp corners, the only info I have seen on narrow tires is for the bike tires that are ran on solar racers. The numbers that I used to get the 200 hp/wheel number were 5 inchs wide, 30 inch dia. and a Cd of .4, using those numbers give you about 180 hp at 400 mph. The .4 Cd was a WAG. What you really need to do is to make sure that there is a minimum amount of disturbance as the air goes around the tire, and I would guess the fronts to be very important because if they develop some big turbulance that could have an impact on the air going to the rear tires. My plan is to have a non rotating disc on both the inside and outside of the fronts along with an aero cover over the steering arm and axle end and spindle and of course have all of this flaired together and the axle to be an air foil shape.

Here is a rule question regarding using what the F1 guys call "barg boards" which are really turning vanes. Could a person use a vertically mounted guide that would be mounted on the axle, next to the wheel/tire that would extend to the rear of the tire and turn the air such that it would be turned into the low pressure area behind the tire, and I would assume that no part of this "guide vane" would be past the inside vertical plane of the tire.


Rex

Sum, I should be there late Friday morning, staying the night in Winnemucca, looking forward to seeing you.
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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2006, 07:14:51 PM »

Quote from: Rex Schimmer
Here is a rule question regarding using what the F1 guys call "barg boards" which are really turning vanes. Could a person use a vertically mounted guide that would be mounted on the axle, next to the wheel/tire that would extend to the rear of the tire and turn the air such that it would be turned into the low pressure area behind the tire, and I would assume that no part of this "guide vane" would be past the inside vertical plane of the tire.


I've looked at those also and thought I would make some to try later if I ever get the car done and actually running.  I think to really be effective you would have to have some wind tunnel time (not in my expense account).  You can see the effect by holding you hand out the window or if you have a car old enough to have window vents at the front of the side windows. Since I don't have air on my GMC I get to play at directing air on me going down the road a lot wink   The other thing is it doesn't take much change of angle to redirect it to a whole other area. They also used the "coke" body shape  on the car to direct air.  I don't see anything in the current rules that would disallow them as long as they are inside the wheel plane.

I'm still not getting my question answered though about whether you have the same aero drag on both the front and rear tire or less on one or the other if they are in line with each other and if so how long can the wheel base be before it goes away?Huh

c ya, Sum
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