Saving the Salt

[Robin UK]

Good job Louise, Rick, Sid and all those providing evidence contrary to the stance from the BLM that there is no evidence of shrinkage. As a prostitute once famously said in the UK back in the 60's when an eminent politician was caught with his trousers down but denied he'd done it - "well he would say that wouldn't he".

Apart from all the detailed evidence presented, application of the duck test sums it all up for me. Quote:

Duck test is a humorous term for a form of inductive reasoning. This is its usual expression:

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse, or even valid, arguments that something is not what it appears to be.

Robin

[Old Scrambler]

GREAT INFO...............and fully supports my credo..........BE CAREFUL WHO YOU VOTE FOR

[BHR301]

After Louise was done the entire show started to sound like a political advertisement, Dr. Bowen and BLM's Kevin Oliver sounding like politicians running for office..mouth moving..BS coming out..saying nothing that would upset Intreped Potash who was paying the bills!

[BobDcuda]

To me, the key phrases from Louise's summary are in the 2012 section.  In BLM's own words: "it has never been determined that the conditions of the BSF are attributed to the mining operations" and "removing mineral from the shallow brine aquifer north of I-80 may be causing the salt layer to thin and retract".

In simpler terms, BLM seems to be saying: "we don't disagree that the BSF has been degraded, but no one has ever done a study to PROVE that it's due to mining.  We can't stop doing our mandated job (selling public resources) without substantial proof."  And it seems their recent call for an independent study by University of Utah is a step in the right direction towards that.

Hopefully that study will be comprehensive and will address the wide disparity in prior surveys and studies that have come before.  And hopefully STS will be able to keep a handle on how this study progresses; no doubt BLM will be casting their shadow.  A lot!

[salt27]

UPDATE SPEED COLLABORATORS

DIRECT LINK:

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/shrinking-salt-flats

You are able to replay the program if you missed it.

[Sumner]

.nd it seems their recent call for an independent study by University of Utah is a step in the right direction towards that.

Hopefully that study will be comprehensive and will address the wide disparity in prior surveys and studies that have come before.  And hopefully STS will be able to keep a handle on how this study progresses; no doubt BLM will be casting their shadow.  A lot!

Let's not forget that it is Intrepid that is paying for the study,

Sumner

[SPARKY]

Follow UP:

1.  If Utah decides to sue--- SCOTUS  is where the law suit will be heard.

 When a state sues the Federal Govt. the case is tried before the Supreme Court.  The Constitution plainly states that a state is to receive it all of the land inside it borders and have jurisdiction over it when it achieves statehood.

2. Another avenue:  There is a Coalition of Counties forming and the plan is to sue in the US Claims Court which is located in DC.  Counties plan to sue for damages by not having the ability to develop their tax base for one thing---I am sure there will be others.

[Bob Drury]

  Sorry to have missed all the posts for the last week (my sister was in Hospice so duty called).  
  I just got home and in trying to catch up I may have skipped over some one already coming up with the same idea.  How about the BLM installing and paying for (out of their own budget) a dyke surrounding the miles and miles of Salt Mounds from Intrepid to the East towards SLC.  Next They should flood the whole da*n enclosure and Pump in year round back where it belongs. They could even do this a section at a time with portable "Sea Walls" and use portable pumps and pipes to either pump it to the existing Intrepid Pumps or if necessary dig a new trench from a site on the South side to the Salt Flats.
  Expensive?  You bet your A*s, and would it take time?  Yes, and for us Oldster's it may mean We won't ever get to run again, but at least We could be proud of what We helped accomplish.
  Even If it kept us off the Salt Flats for another year or two this scenario could possibly work if the same type of portable barriers (think Interstate Concrete Lane Dividers) were placed around the perimeter of our Current area of use and if they pumped only into that area for as long as it takes to give us enough salt to race on.
  This is just another "not well thought out" suggestion so keep them coming folk's because it's obvious the BLM has been incompetent for at least fifty years and there is no way in H*ll they will do this on their own.  This needs to be addressed at the Department of Interior (the BLM's Boss) level or they will stall it until the Cow's come home.........
                                                                                       Old and tired One Run Bob, out...........................................

[Bob Drury]

  Sparky, WE NEED TO SUE THE BLM IN FEDERAL COURT.  It is pretty obvious that the Politician's in the State of Utah favor Industry over saving a National Treasure.
  They have turned a Blind Eye towards the Loss of Salt for Fifty Years and if anything are complaisant if not in collusion in the wanton destruction of Public Lands.
                                                                                           Bob Drury

[Milwaukee Midget]

Follow UP:

1.  If Utah decides to sue--- SCOTUS  is where the law suit will be heard.

 When a state sues the Federal Govt. the case is tried before the Supreme Court.  The Constitution plainly states that a state is to receive it all of the land inside it borders and have jurisdiction over it when it achieves statehood.

2. Another avenue:  There is a Coalition of Counties forming and the plan is to sue in the US Claims Court which is located in DC.  Counties plan to sue for damages by not having the ability to develop their tax base for one thing---I am sure there will be others.

Which raises a question - how committed is the state of Utah to reconstituting Bonneville?

I know in Wisconsin, there's a lot of environmental concern for the Horicon Marsh, yet the State chooses to minimize its authority and involvement, deferring to adjacent land owners and municipalities, and complaining about costs of maintenance, rather than investing in preservation.

You can say tourist dollars, but Bonneville doesn't bring in a fraction of what the Arches or Bryce does - and to make matters worse, most of the money gets dropped across the border in Nevada.

Here's a comparison.  Sundance brought 86.4 million into Utah this year.  If every man, woman and child who showed up for Speedweek in 2013 spent $5,000 each in Utah, we'd still fall short of that.  I don't think I can stomach that many Subway sandwiches, and my hotel money went across the border into Nevada.  

What incentive does Utah have to protect Bonneville?

When you've got an employer bringing decent, year around wages to the cheap side of the border of a financially diminished railroad town, what incentive does a local politician have to get muscular with that operation?

The big advantage to smaller government is it takes smaller amounts of cash to buy 'em off.  The disadvantage is that non-local concerns aren't addressed.

Racers are largely non-local, so both that advantage and disadvantage works against us.

I find myself agreeing with Bob, but given the litany of facts and observations posted by Louise's timeline, where do you start with this seven headed hydra?

[will6er]

Based the above report these points stood out:

Over about a 100 year period there have been removals of 65,000 tons?, 270,000 tons?, even as much as 1,600,000 TONS - ANNUALLY. (More accurate numbers could be determined through the Freedom of Information Act.) Surely this has to have some effect.

Many anecdotal reports refer to a shrinking salt area.

BLM and others have commissioned  studies - What are the results? - and what has been done?

The BLM representatives themselves have referred to the degradation of the salt surface.

All these have been ignored or swept under the rug.

I believe that BLM has to be called to account on these.

Will Willis #6302

[Bob Drury]

  Correct me if I am wrong but sometime in the last year someone posted on here that the local Intrepid plant was down to (it seems) thiry or forty employees  due to the World wide glut in potash etal.  So lets say its 50 or even one hundred.  Just how big of a local impact on the Economy of Wendover could the loss of one hundred shoppers be?  Smith's Market, none.  Casino's, none.  The Shell Station, none. 
  The only people affected would be the Politicians re election contributions or PAC's from Intrepid.
                                                                                      Bob Drury

[kiwi belly tank]

Don't hold back Bob, we hate it when you do that!
  Sid.

[SPARKY]

Guys and Gals

I am just reporting---of course Utah is wanting to increase their revenue--- they want what the eastern states got when they joined the union the land within their borders under their jurisdiction!!

We LSR types, can play a big role as this plays out---but only by exercising our rights as CITIZENS of the USA---the Right to the exercise of Self Governance!!

We need to commit ourselves to learning to be the holder of the control of the shock collar so that we when we say sit----the ROTWILLER sits !!

[Harold Bettes]

Another potential is to encourage the state of Utah to cycle some of the very saline water in the great salt lake (120 miles to the east of Bonneville) carried in tanker cars to be deposited on Bonneville salt flats. Some of the costs could be borne by Intrepid as it would assist in their "potash recovery". The state of Utah most assuredly wants to keep the salt flats salty! This type of cycling would enhance halide production on the flats as it would help momma nature speed up the natural deposition of salt on the surface of the flats. Note where the railroad goes making the process fairly direct. There are probably even some tax advantages in there for Intrepid as they could write off some of the efforts as "public interest" items.

Another push should be done by the STS folks to get salt deposited back across the road to build up areas that are way thin at the present time.

I am all for filing a class action suit on the BLM, but those things take forever. The Utah state legislature is a more direct solution I would think. Starting with the state rep for Wendover area.

Just thinking before heading to bed.....

Regards to All,
HB2