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Author Topic: Engine cooling: water tank vs. rad in tank vs:- water-water heat exchanger  (Read 7168 times)
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metermatch
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« on: May 09, 2014, 07:07:49 PM »

I have been contemplating a different cooling system for my CRX.

I like the radiator in tank idea, but it looks like a lot of work.

How about something like this? 

http://www.altheatsupply.com/index.php/shop-by-needs/outdoor-wood-furnace-parts/plate-heat-exchangers.html

My car is about 225hp at the crank.  I was thinking of using an about 15 gallon water tank.

I was thinking of a 100 plate model for about $400: Rated at about 250,000 btu/hr.  Or about 4000 btu/minute.  My quick calculation:  My 225 hp motor sends about 75hp of heat to cooling system - so 75hp * 42 btu/min per hp means about 3200 btu/min my motor would send to the cooling system.

Smaller, ready to go compared to building something.

I was thinking of just warming up the engine to about 180-200 degrees to start run, thermostat beginning to open, water circulating through one side of the heat exchanger, and then when leaving the line, turning on an about 20 gpm pump to circulate the water from the 15 gallon tank through the heat exchanger, and then back into the tank.  In the end, it would have the capability to absorb the energy needed to heat 15 gallons water from 100 degrees to perhaps 200 degrees.  Of course I could increase heat absorbtion capacity by starting with more like 50 degree water.

Engine side of heat exchanger would be pressurized to 20-30 psi based on radiator cap, and water tank side would be open to atmosphere.

These heat exchangers I believe are used for solar heaters and for boilers for houses, meaning they can handle more than enough pressure for our application.

Will something like this exchange the heat fast enought?

Thanks,

Jeff
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makr
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 09:08:07 PM »

I run radiator in water, but have been looking at this exact thing.
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tauruck
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 10:44:29 PM »

That looks like a good idea. cheers

Maybe guys still use radiators due to the cost.
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manta22
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 02:25:50 AM »

A "total loss" cooling system has been used successfully by air racers for some time.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
tauruck
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2014, 02:54:23 AM »

Neil, would you care to elaborate for us simple folk?.

I'm just about to build my radiator box and one doesn't want to look back and say "Aw man, I shoulda done that!" grin
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metermatch
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2014, 04:21:25 PM »

I guess a total loss system would be a bit better than my idea.  If I start with say 15 gallons of cold water, pump it through the heat exchanger and then back to the same 15 gallon tank, it will pre-heat the remaining water and get progressively less efficient as the run progresses.  Delta T will become less and less.

If the water from the heat exchanger is dumped overboard, it wouldn't be preheating the remaining cooling water.

Jeff
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manta22
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2014, 04:59:34 PM »

Mike;

Here is a post from an air racing site regarding the cooling system for a highly modified P-51 Mustang named "Stilleto":

"Matt Jackson

02-28-2007, 09:17 PM

Stiletto was originally built after the Anson Johnson racer from the 40's. It had wing radiators and was the model for the original Stiletto design. This however was changed when Bruce Lockwood and the guys from the MOF removed the wing radiators and installed the total boil off system. Essentially they submerged the radiator in a tub and allowed the heat of the engine to be ejected through the process of boiling off as steam. The Germans had perfected this in the late 30's and it worked excellent. They essentially eliminating all air over the radiator and having no scoops with the exception of the carb inlet. The aircraft used less water boiling during a race then the current mustangs spay over the radiators now. In 1992 I think I used 60 gallons. It also had the same range cross country as a stock P51 as you would run out of fuel before running out of boiler water. The problem was having to fill with water at each fuel stop, just another step to go fly. This is still the ideal cooling method for a liquid cooled race plane however and would certainly provide great speed gains for the likes of Dago, Strega and any other race mustang for that matter. The issue however is money, time and desire. By the looks of the current situation in racing, it won't be long before the unlimiteds will be arriving from the Sport class. It will be like the 30's all over again."

I hope this brief explanation is OK.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 07:17:11 PM »

Total loss water/cooling systems are covered by rule 1.N, page 16.

DW
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 10:10:22 PM »

Dan;

This type of cooling system should not do any damage to the course; the only thing sent overboard is water vapor-- steam. No liquid is dumped out.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Saltfever
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 12:14:55 AM »

No different than the Brits running a steam engine.
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salt27
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 12:23:15 AM »

Or us blowing a head gasket every run.   tongue

At least we didn't have to go to the truck stop for a hot showers.   grin
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 10:20:16 AM »

I understand now. If you are not steaming at the end of qualifying you haven't made the top 10 at Daytona

DW
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 09:24:38 AM »

Does anyone have a formula for amount of water needed in the tank vs horsepower? We are planning a system like this and will have up to 2500hp but most likely not more then 2000hp
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 11:36:41 AM »

Does anyone have a formula for amount of water needed in the tank vs horsepower? We are planning a system like this and will have up to 2500hp but most likely not more then 2000hp

I made up a spread sheet for intercooler ice water...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

...but it considers the massive amount of BTU's that it takes to convert ice into water so probably won't help and I don't know how accurate it is even for that application.  I should know more after we can run Hooley's Stude harder in August.

One thing with your projected HP is that you should be able to make the run faster and also you for sure won't be using the 2000 HP for the entire run.

Are you considering this turn the water to steam idea?  I can see it working but with the limited runs we make and everything else that would need to be figured into such a system just can't see it as and easy solution.  We have the ...


http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html

rad-in-a-box and a 30+ gallon tank and feel we are not going to have problems with up to 1500 HP and considering that the car would complete the run even faster potentially with more HP feel it is going to work into the future for us,

Sum
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javajoe79
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 12:13:34 PM »

Does anyone have a formula for amount of water needed in the tank vs horsepower? We are planning a system like this and will have up to 2500hp but most likely not more then 2000hp

I made up a spread sheet for intercooler ice water...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html

...but it considers the massive amount of BTU's that it takes to convert ice into water so probably won't help and I don't know how accurate it is even for that application.  I should know more after we can run Hooley's Stude harder in August.

One thing with your projected HP is that you should be able to make the run faster and also you for sure won't be using the 2000 HP for the entire run.

Are you considering this turn the water to steam idea?  I can see it working but with the limited runs we make and everything else that would need to be figured into such a system just can't see it as and easy solution.  We have the ...


http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html

rad-in-a-box and a 30+ gallon tank and feel we are not going to have problems with up to 1500 HP and considering that the car would complete the run even faster potentially with more HP feel it is going to work into the future for us,

Sum
  All good info. Thanks. I was thinking of just the radiator in a box full of water and not a separate tank with a pump moving water across the radiator core. I like your setup though. I figured that if I do the math on the full power potential and more time then we will actually run in one pass at Bonneville, then the system will be overkill.

 Another thing I didn't think about was how much more efficient the radiator becomes when turned into a water to water unit. We can run a smaller radiator for better packaging.
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