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Author Topic: '86 Camaro for B'ville  (Read 14435 times)
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jacksoni
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 07:52:18 AM »

Since you have no class ideas (run whatever) the Trans Am nose on a Camaro puts you in Altered at least. Not a problem though the engine swap makes you GC anyway. By the way, the nose on  Gary Eakers car in '89 was not a stock piece but a special (maybe one off- I don't know) from GM that had a deeper air dam. Lowering the car of course in needed. There is/was an aftermarket supplier of an air dam looked factory but 2" or so more air dam worth looking at though of course you can make your own similar to what Keith Turk (Freiburger) did on their earlier model Camaro and of course many others as well. I am not sure if lowering spindles for that year are still available. Is what I used and a fellow in Ohio I have talked to building similar had asked about. I have not recently researched that. He may have. Let me know if you are interested in site for the air dam.
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Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 169.741  2009
 G/GMS-178.835 2010
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 09:33:10 AM »

I've been wondering about that. I always believed the air dams were like gospel, and I know Roadkill has to be taken with a grain of salt, no pun intended, but after that '79-'81 Firebird killed Freiburger's run with no air dam, running around 230-something MPH, maybe some re-thinking is called for. I've never liked how the factory ground effects are higher off the ground at the very front than at the wheel wells, though I do understand why. Also, factory ground effects don't actually do anything to create a tunnel under the car, they're really no lower than the metal bodywork under the doors.
 Back in late '92 Pacific-something made a sweet air dam for the '91-'92 nose, which made that my favorite look, and yet I'd rather copy SE Racecraft just because theirs is known stable at speed, no such evidence that I can find for the '91-'92 nose, though it seems the sleekest.
 I'm thinking run an '85-up Camaro nose for road use, and fit the common '85-'90 T/A nose for speed runs, extending the air dam with braced aluminum. If I ran a 'bird nose with a 'maro rear on the road, I'd have endless hassles with every cop everywhere. Just as not worth it as getting a 'bird. I may yet end up with a hardtop 'bird for a dedicated speed car, but I'd rather one car that can do everything, like the Veyron, but for a million dollars less than the Veyron.
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Sumner
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2014, 10:00:25 AM »

....Turbo 4.8L LSx / 4L80E / 2.75:1 9" Ford axle / 28" rear tires....

Welcome to having a build underway.  I like the engine choice.  What are you going to do for a crank when you start making the power needed to run over 250?  The head choices for that engine are good and I'll be interested in seeing how it works out for you.  Might be something I look at later also.

I'm wonder why the 4L80E?  You would be stuck with one set of gears basically and not really the best ratios for what you are wanting to do.  Maybe consider something like the G-Force 101A where you can change gear ratios cheaply down the road to match what you are doing at the time.  Not a whole lot more than a built 4L80E and the controller for it.

You might also take a look at this thread starting on page 7 where the discussion turned to a Ford rear-end combination where you end up with 2.26 gears ....

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13504.90.html

Hooley runs the 2.47 Ford 9 inch in his Stude but to get to 300 that presents some problems gear wise unless you are going to really turn the 4.8 and you don't really need to do that with the turbo.

Just a couple things to think about and good luck on the build,

Sum
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Scottie J
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2014, 10:22:50 AM »

Granted I'm new to LSR myself, but I feel like you are going to have a really hard time trying run a "230mph race car" on the street.  It's one thing to build a street car to race at the track, but it's another to run a race car on the street.  The problems I see trying to do this are: 1 - Every cop in the entire state is going to be pulling you over.  2 - Running the same gears to hit 230mph are going to be borderline useless in a street application.  3 - Emissions?  (Not sure if you need to pass emissions where you live).

This is just MHO, as I've considered trying to make my '59 Indian street legal, and I just don't think it's worth it.  The headache trying to make it happen and the fact that you will just get yourself into trouble.  As far as being a cheaper version of the Veyron, maybe you should look into getting a NRE motor if you want to run the track and the street.

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/

At any rate, good luck with your build!

Scottie J
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manta22
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2014, 11:43:05 AM »

A street/LSR car is a compromise that will result in one that is mediocre in both applications-- like the continually re- invented airplane/car.

Choose one or the other.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 02:27:13 PM »

....Turbo 4.8L LSx / 4L80E / 2.75:1 9" Ford axle / 28" rear tires....

Welcome to having a build underway.  I like the engine choice.  What are you going to do for a crank when you start making the power needed to run over 250?  The head choices for that engine are good and I'll be interested in seeing how it works out for you.  Might be something I look at later also.

I'm wonder why the 4L80E?  You would be stuck with one set of gears basically and not really the best ratios for what you are wanting to do.  Maybe consider something like the G-Force 101A where you can change gear ratios cheaply down the road to match what you are doing at the time.  Not a whole lot more than a built 4L80E and the controller for it.

You might also take a look at this thread starting on page 7 where the discussion turned to a Ford rear-end combination where you end up with 2.26 gears ....

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13504.90.html

Hooley runs the 2.47 Ford 9 inch in his Stude but to get to 300 that presents some problems gear wise unless you are going to really turn the 4.8 and you don't really need to do that with the turbo.

Just a couple things to think about and good luck on the build,

Sum

 I can afford to do it safe, but I'm not trying to order the best of everything, bolt it all together, and call it done. The 4.8L is not only because Holdener did 1203 HP in HotRod magazine, though the aftermath, or follow-up that never got published, was that his 4.8 continued to survive a great many more pulls over 1200 HP, still on a stock short-block assembly. I don't foresee ever getting many chances to open it up that much, mostly drive on an 800-horse tune, more likely.
 I'm convinced the Ford 9.75" rear axle assembly, with 3.08:1 gears, that I intend to use for everything else but the salt, isn't necessary when there's no real traction. The 9" is easier to install, and stronger, than a Ford 8.8" or a GM 8.5", both of which offer close-enough 2.73:1, but the 8.8 is by far the most common in the salvage yards.
 There are guys who've run stock 4.8s to 7500 RPM for years, even without ARP rod bolts and Comp Pro Magnum HR lifters, so the RPM can easily go 7500 with those upgrades installed. I'm mostly concerned about valvesprings, as the springs used by the 7500-RPM non-turbo guys are the same ones used for 1203 HP @ 6500 RPM. Titanium retainers will help, but I'm not doing Ti valves. The best normal exhaust valves are available for $ 250 / set.
 I surely don't need to touch the heads to run 255, but probably to run 301.
I had to pass on a set of 2.50:1 9" gears because the old man refused to get himself a PayPal account. There's no other way to guarantee that nobody gets cheated unless it's live, face-to-face, in person. He couldn't understand that. On the Ford460 forum they claim that 2.50:1 was for the 460, and 2.47:1 was for the 351M, and the 400M in station wagons, or some such.
 2.73:1 in the rear, 0.75:1 in the trans, and 28.6" (Y)-rated road tires puts my RPM at 7249 to go 301 MPH. which brings me to the 4L80E
I can rebuild one myself, I can get one in the salvage yard for $ 125, and they can be built to hold 1400 HP. The alternative is to spend 16 times as much for a Tranzilla from Rockland Standard Gear, and that is still 0.75:1 in sixth, not 0.68:1 like last year's ZR1, which they take first through third gears from anyway.  Controlling the 4L80E is no cost at all. I already got the #411 PCM and harness with the 4.8L, and the 4.8L was offered with the 4L80E in the Express vans. I e-mailed my tune guy, Ryan Gick at GMTuners.com, and unlocking the anti-theft, calibrating the speedometer, and replacing the 4L60E map with the 4L80E map all adds up to $ 85, not bad at all. He always gets it right on the first try.
 I hope I've answered your questions, and thanks for being friendly!
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overdue
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2014, 02:36:12 PM »

Granted I'm new to LSR myself, but I feel like you are going to have a really hard time trying run a "230mph race car" on the street.  It's one thing to build a street car to race at the track, but it's another to run a race car on the street.  The problems I see trying to do this are: 1 - Every cop in the entire state is going to be pulling you over.  2 - Running the same gears to hit 230mph are going to be borderline useless in a street application.  3 - Emissions?  (Not sure if you need to pass emissions where you live).

This is just MHO, as I've considered trying to make my '59 Indian street legal, and I just don't think it's worth it.  The headache trying to make it happen and the fact that you will just get yourself into trouble.  As far as being a cheaper version of the Veyron, maybe you should look into getting a NRE motor if you want to run the track and the street.

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/

At any rate, good luck with your build!

Scottie J

First, what would the cops pull me over for? Seriously.
Second, I had a 145-horse 305 in a '78 Camaro with a TH350 and a 2.41:1 axle, it drove surprisingly well, and this proposal has more aggressive gearing.
Third, as long as the turbos are after the Cali-legal stainless-steel-core cats, which don't heat-melt, and as long as my cam has no overlap at 0.050" tappet movement, then there's nothing stopping me from having my 1200 horses with emissions-legality. This is no different, emissions-wise, from an LS1 swap, which is even legal in Cali, and the Squires rear-turbo LS1 kit is legal there also.
 And turbos quiet the exhaust, past the point where mufflers aren't needed. so think of them as the world's most powerful mufflers grin
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overdue
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2014, 02:38:41 PM »

A street/LSR car is a compromise that will result in one that is mediocre in both applications-- like the continually re- invented airplane/car.

Choose one or the other.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,
 I may end up with both, but being in my late 30s, I'm still young enough to suffer the compromise. The glory isn't calling, but a guy has to make a name for himself to draw customers for car-building, and these days it takes extreme accomplishments to make a name.
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overdue
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2014, 02:40:38 PM »

Thought I'd share a photo-chop I did of a friend's car, showing why I chose a Camaro over a Firebird. I snuck about 3.5" out of the front overhang, as GM should have, as proven by the FD-chassis Mazda RX7, which has far less overhang than this.


* Dave1.jpg (80.25 KB, 800x533 - viewed 153 times.)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 02:44:35 PM by overdue » Logged
Sumner
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« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2014, 03:00:56 PM »

........ 2.73:1 in the rear, 0.75:1 in the trans, and 28.6" (Y)-rated road tires puts my RPM at 7249 to go 301 MPH. which brings me to the 4L80E....

Just a couple more things to think about.  Hooley's Stude weighs between 5000 and 6000 and with a 1.90 first gear and the 2.47's and with the old motor, probably between 800-850 HP, 40-50% throttle is about max without blowing the tires off.  The 80LE with the 2.48 1st and the 2.73 rear will make 1st about useless.  

Our second was a 1.30 and he still wasn't able to run WOT in 2nd ever.  Not until the 1:1 3rd and the 7% overdrive was he running WOT.  I think you will probably find that you will be running 3rd and overdrive  and 1st and 2nd will be pretty useless.  We went with the 101 to stay away from a huge rpm drop between 3rd and 4th.  A high HP turbo motor might make that drop ok, but we are still tying to keep it at a 15% max even with the new turbo motor.

5 miles is also a lot longer than most dyno pulls and Subaru happens  smiley.  

You are also going to need to buy landspeed tires and the goodyears at $600 a piece and they are a tad under 28 inches so just a bit smaller than the dia. your quoted.  I get the same speed at rpm you do just wonder about that big jump going into 4th.  You are going to have to make sure your power band is wide enough for it.

Figure probably $5000 for the required safety equipment to run over 200 with a blown front-engine car.

Keep studying and keep planning and try to avoid some of the screw-ups some of us have done  cry.  We are just trying to help in that direction,

Sum
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 07:28:16 PM by Sumner » Logged

Scottie J
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« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2014, 03:47:18 PM »


First, what would the cops pull me over for? Seriously........


I've driven enough Hot Rods and Pro Streets to know that any cop that sees a roll cage and a parachute knows it's just a matter of time before you hit the throttle.  That's all.

Scottie J
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jacksoni
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« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2014, 07:41:50 PM »

More or less streetability of a Bonneville car has been a topic here before and the consensus has been that with all the requirements for cage, seat, fire systems etc etc, not to mention mounting the dry sump tank in the passenger area, replacing all glass with lexan, and the list goes on and on, that it is not a viable deal. You can work up on it certainly but ingress and exit with the cage and helmet support requirements makes it tough. If I can get it to work will post a photo of my 'Bird. Front springs cut one turn, dropped spindles and the deeper front dam. At rest, I could just get two fingers under the nose in the center. At speed, it lifts. I ran the stock spoiler on back at first but took it off and ran faster but I was not traction limited, which you will be.

McDonald and Pitts/Mike LeFever (dynoroom here)  IIRC (don't want to misrepresent here but I think this is right) ran the 91-2 vintage which has the new nose but old back I think and were over 300 (??313?). You might ask them about stability. Mike told me the stock spoiler worked well when you need downforce on the rear. Weight gets to be a big topic when traction becomes an issue. People load the back. This is not good for aero stability as soon as you spin the tires and the back gets out a bit as it wants to keep going. Delicate balance between going straight and going Acura first.


* Bonneville 08 078.jpg (361.49 KB, 1288x966 - viewed 595 times.)
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Jack Iliff
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 G/GC- 169.741  2009
 G/GMS-178.835 2010
Sumner
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« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2014, 08:48:42 PM »



Great looking car!

........ Weight gets to be a big topic when traction becomes an issue. People load the back. This is not good for aero stability as soon as you spin the tires and the back gets out a bit as it wants to keep going. Delicate balance between going straight and going Acura first.

Good points.  The Studebaker was about 3100 lbs. before we started adding weight.  None is behind the axle.  Some ahead on both sides for traction and then more further forward under the transmission and more in the nose to help balance the car and now...



http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20construction%20menu.html

....the big vertical stabilizers allowed in comp coupe that help even more,

Sum
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Scottie J
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 10:34:24 AM »

That Baker is sweet!!!  Love it!!!
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Dynoroom
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 02:22:32 PM »

Jack has most of the facts correct. We ran a 300.787 mph average with a 307 terminal speed back in 1999. 

Here are a few of the cars that have set records in the classes you'll be able to run in. A couple are over 300 mph.
I know you "just want to see how fast I can go" but in the end you will have so much money tied up in tires (~$750 ea. rear), safety gear ($1000 fire suit used), windows (glass is no longer allowed) etc. you might as well forget the street car aspect IMO.
You are doing one thing right, the '82-'92 "F" bodies have much better aero than the 4th gen cars. However you can no longer mix and match features from different model years in Gas Coupe any longer, i.e. '92 nose with the '88 rear spoiler.

Good Luck & remember to have fun.


* 1966788_10201743947226008_363675067_n.jpg (83.57 KB, 960x653 - viewed 167 times.)

* b-bville-3-0808.jpg (45.81 KB, 470x313 - viewed 146 times.)

* hrdp-1301-11+salt-101-bonneville-racing-guide+fourth-gen-firebird (Medium).jpg (78.5 KB, 800x600 - viewed 136 times.)

* BanksTA.jpg (40.36 KB, 500x363 - viewed 135 times.)
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Michael LeFevers
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Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...
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