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Author Topic: Motorcycle "Records" - Really??  (Read 35775 times)
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sockjohn
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« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2014, 09:49:53 PM »

    You have the choice to run in an old class that takes a LOT of smarts, skill and experience to set a record in, or you have the choice to run in a class that takes a lot less of those things,        

You are making the assumption that those who run on an open or soft record are not smart enough or too lazy to bother working hard to break a record.  

I'm putting a blower on the sidecar this year.  The class record is open right now.  Where's the challenge?  First of all you have to make two passes to set the record.  Anything can happen.  Nothing is guaranteed.  Secondly there is the challenge of seeing just how far up you can set that record.  There is no rule that says you have to run slow on an open record.  Nor is there a rule that says if you're smart or skillful or have a lot of experience you are not allowed to run on an open record.

P.S.  Anyone know where I can pick up a Snell 05 or better paper bag so no one will know its me running on an open record?



A few years back there was a guy who ran on an open motorcycle record and did not set a record.  My fuzzy memory is something like made first pass on the bike, went and tinkered with the bike instead of going to impound because the run wasn't good enough for his liking.  Makes decent pass, goes to impound, then turns out on the return run and could not get the bike back for any more runs that meet.

I think he was luckier than many, how many people plan trips to the salt only to get rained out instead of making passes?
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Beng
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« Reply #151 on: March 13, 2014, 09:52:13 AM »

What I read in the opening post of this thread (page 1) was Dean giving his opinion on why there were more records set by motorcycles than cars at Speedweek 2013.

   Yes, since the title of the thread is "Motorcycle "Records" - Really??", Dean putting the word "records" in quotes does imply that he is trying to make a point about the records set by motorcycles. On page 6 he comes back and defines his point more exactly by saying:
 
    "I'll repeat what I said earlier. Every record set this year had a faster record on the books, in what should have been a slower class.
I don't really care that you ran on an open record. You cherry picked it, didn't you?"
 
     Then he goes on to talk about someone putting "a wheel on a stick" onto a motorcycle and running in a soft class instead of a more competitive one.
 
      I think Dean and everyone else knows that it cost a lot of money and time to compete in motorsports at all, and he never brought that up so it does not make any sense to dwell on that point as some have in this thread.
      It seemed to me that the people responding to the thread turned the subject towards things they felt bad about which had nothing to do with what Dean was talking about.
 
       Dean never said there was anyone who could participate in motorsports with no effort or expenditure of money, he said that according to the data, it is a developing trend for motorcycle competitors to look for soft or empty records to attack rather than risk trying to break a hard record.

       Why point that out? Dean did not spell it out, but the most obvious reason is that maybe he has more respect for people that compete in tough classes than in soft ones. And all I was doing was agreeing with him because I have a lot of respect for someone who can build an engine and a machine that is capable of beating a hard class.
 
      It is a pretty simple and common sense statement, and I don't think he deserves the criticism some have heaped on him for voicing it.
   
       
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Nortonist 592
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« Reply #152 on: March 13, 2014, 06:16:58 PM »

"Then he goes on to talk about someone putting "a wheel on a stick" onto a motorcycle and running a soft class instead of a ore competitive one."   Shame either you or Dean know anything about sidecars.  If you did you would realize that (a) the majority of sidecars are, like most other classes including cars, purpose built and (b) the rules require more than a "wheel on a stick".  Question time.  What makes sidecar records soft? 

In his post he mentions sidecar streamliner 8081B running 197+ on an open record.  Adding the remark that had it run without a sidecar it would have been running on a 230 record.  A case of a "wheel on a stick" and run on a soft record?  Or is it the fact that 8081B CANNOT run as a solo as it doesn't meet the solo rule requirements.  Something conveniently forgotten perhaps?

So the conclusion would be that sidecar streamliner 8081B took the 650cc streamliner sidecar class record from open to 197+ but as it was an open and therefore soft record he deserves less respect.  Total and utter BS.

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« Reply #153 on: March 14, 2014, 12:56:41 PM »

97 MPH would have been a soft record, 197 not so much

Unfortunately, many people do not have the facts nor know the players before commenting.

DW
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grumm441
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« Reply #154 on: March 14, 2014, 08:23:44 PM »



In his post he mentions sidecar streamliner 8081B running 197+ on an open record.  Adding the remark that had it run without a sidecar it would have been running on a 230 record.  A case of a "wheel on a stick" and run on a soft record?  Or is it the fact that 8081B CANNOT run as a solo as it doesn't meet the solo rule requirements.  Something conveniently forgotten perhaps?

So the conclusion would be that sidecar streamliner 8081B took the 650cc streamliner sidecar class record from open to 197+ but as it was an open and therefore soft record he deserves less respect.  Total and utter BS.



Speculation was that he put a "wheel on a stick" on it because the rules were changed (25 rule)to stop that particular vehicle running
as a motorcycle streamliner.
Doesn't seem like cherry picking to me. seems like something else all together
G
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salt27
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« Reply #155 on: March 14, 2014, 10:45:37 PM »

I would like to change the term "cherry picking" to "cherry popping", it just doesn't sound so derogatory.   rolleyes

  Don 
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Stan Back
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« Reply #156 on: March 15, 2014, 11:15:04 AM »

Messier, though.
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« Reply #157 on: March 15, 2014, 01:33:42 PM »

Perhaps, Stan, we should form a national organization.  Call it the National Association for the Appreciation of Cherry Pickers?
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« Reply #158 on: March 15, 2014, 03:31:48 PM »

I think that one's been taken.
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runt13
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« Reply #159 on: March 21, 2014, 06:40:41 AM »

Well then, I picked the whole dam cherry tree.

Started prepping my sons Buell when ECTA was still running Maxton. To go after the P/PP-1350-4 record. Took me close to 3 years and, by the time I was ready, Maxton was no longer. Enter Wilmington.

I made the inaugural event, as well as 200 others, every ones 125mph rookie run was essentially a record. since they were all open. However the talk was always based on the Maxton records, either I just broke the Maxton record, or I still haven't broke the Maxton record, or ill be back to break the Maxton record, or what's the Maxton record.

I set the Wilmington record that day for my class, well below the Maxton record, [like 30mph slower].It was one of the proudest moments of my life. 3 years, 1200 miles, the bike, the gear, slept in a tent, raced out of the back of my truck, lived off corn chips and water. I wouldn't trade it for anything!

Been back over and over again, now have set and reset records, my own and others, in both the production and modified class's, and I'm still 10mph from the Maxton record for my initial class, but I am gaining on it. And that Maxton record is still my goal! Because to me the only way to make it a Wilmington record is to beat it!

It's a journey, a quest, a drive, a desire! I've met many a good person, been helped by all in one way or the other. And can say [from real world experience] its the best racing community in the world!

So, I promise I'll put the cherry tree back once I break the Maxton record. At Wilmington!
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2012 Wilmington mile
April meet,
p/pp-1350/4 record, 132.601mph

September meet,
p/pp-1350/4 record 139.915mph [bump]
p/pp-1650/4 record 142.364 mph
p/pp-2000/4 record 140.009 mph
p/pp-3000/4 record 144.511 mph

2013 Wilmington mile
July meet,
m/pg-1650/4 record 137.278
m/pg-2000/4 record 136.695

Sept meet,
p/pp-1350/4 record 141.1986 [bump]

2014  Wilmington mile
May meet
p/pp-1340/4 record 142.5855 [bump]
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« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2014, 02:38:50 PM »

As the owner of a "soft" "wheel on a stick " record I'd like to toss in my thoughts...

Who can say a record is soft? Until you do exactly what another racer is attempting you really have no idea what it really takes to get there that way...

Is my personal record soft? Dunno, my bike on the street can do my record recorded speed in 3rd gear... But that's only momentary. What a bike can hit top speed wise on a freeway momentarily is completely different for a mile duration on wet salt.

From my own personal experience... Math says with the power to weight ratio and gearing I ran my bike should go much faster... But at Bonneville it won't... So are the records determined to be soft based purely on math? Because math sometimes fails us. Ask any engineer why his perfect design and figures still yield a product that fails... Because sometimes in the real world things don't work like they do on paper. There are many variables that go into the records set by the incredible people who have made it happen. Dyno numbers, math, and speculation can give you a guess of what you may achieve.... But.... The great white Dyno and that magic race way doesn't care about speculation or math or Dyno numbers... It tosses variables at you like surface changes, density, temps etc that alter what you Dyno sheet says.

Long and short, the only Man that has a right to say a record is soft is the One who breaks the record in question with the same variables... If you run in the same class to break that soft record and you have to spend 5k to do it, of course you can break it because you tossed money at it till you could overtake it... But your record breaker wasn't the same as the bike that set the soft record. You changed the variables. Now if you mimicked a vehicle, same cost, same basic build and you break that soft record then you pushed harder and you have the right you say it was soft cause you did more work with the same tools.

Basically, respect all the records no matter how fast... Someone earned it with hard work. There is no soft record, only records that someday will be overtaken.

You racers who have records, you're inspirations. Thank you fir your hard work to show what could be done...
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salt27
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« Reply #161 on: March 23, 2014, 03:59:47 PM »

As the owner of a "soft" "wheel on a stick " record I'd like to toss in my thoughts...

Who can say a record is soft? Until you do exactly what another racer is attempting you really have no idea what it really takes to get there that way...

Is my personal record soft? Dunno, my bike on the street can do my record recorded speed in 3rd gear... But that's only momentary. What a bike can hit top speed wise on a freeway momentarily is completely different for a mile duration on wet salt.

From my own personal experience... Math says with the power to weight ratio and gearing I ran my bike should go much faster... But at Bonneville it won't... So are the records determined to be soft based purely on math? Because math sometimes fails us. Ask any engineer why his perfect design and figures still yield a product that fails... Because sometimes in the real world things don't work like they do on paper. There are many variables that go into the records set by the incredible people who have made it happen. Dyno numbers, math, and speculation can give you a guess of what you may achieve.... But.... The great white Dyno and that magic race way doesn't care about speculation or math or Dyno numbers... It tosses variables at you like surface changes, density, temps etc that alter what you Dyno sheet says.

Long and short, the only Man that has a right to say a record is soft is the One who breaks the record in question with the same variables... If you run in the same class to break that soft record and you have to spend 5k to do it, of course you can break it because you tossed money at it till you could overtake it... But your record breaker wasn't the same as the bike that set the soft record. You changed the variables. Now if you mimicked a vehicle, same cost, same basic build and you break that soft record then you pushed harder and you have the right you say it was soft cause you did more work with the same tools.

Basically, respect all the records no matter how fast... Someone earned it with hard work. There is no soft record, only records that someday will be overtaken.

You racers who have records, you're inspirations. Thank you fir your hard work to show what could be done...

Well said.   cheers
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Stainless1
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« Reply #162 on: March 24, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »


Long and short, the only Man that has a right to say a record is soft is the One who breaks the record in question with the same variables... If you run in the same class to break that soft record and you have to spend 5k to do it, of course you can break it because you tossed money at it till you could overtake it... But your record breaker wasn't the same as the bike that set the soft record. You changed the variables. Now if you mimicked a vehicle, same cost, same basic build and you break that soft record then you pushed harder and you have the right you say it was soft cause you did more work with the same tools.

Sorry, I must disagree... your are running a class, the bike you pick is your choice.  Why would I want to run the same setup and see if I can go faster...  If you set a record you are happy with, then that is your record... If I think I can break it, I will decide how I will do that and if I do, it will be my record,  that will not necessarily give me the right to say yours was soft... unless I blow it away.  shocked And even then, an old record is always subject to change in rules or technology. 

Basically, respect all the records no matter how fast... Someone earned it with hard work. There is no soft record, only records that someday will be overtaken.


Anyone that has been on here for any time has read this from me... There are no unbeatable records, every record can be bested and probably will be. 

If you are happy with a record you set, leave it alone... if someone thinks they can take it, encourage them to try. If they do,  take it back... you know if you have a soft record don't be surprised if someone calls it soft... 
Many of us have soft records, but circumstances often control the final speeds....  cheers
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Stainless
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MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #163 on: March 24, 2014, 06:55:30 PM »

All you say yes is true... But none of it answers my actual question...

Let me rephrase the question missed in my long winded post...

What gives anyone the right to call a record soft? What right does anyone except the record racer him or herself to say it's weak... If you weren't there with that budget or that rig with a helmet on then aren't you speculating that it's easy or a soft record.

Personally because I know what I went thru as a first year rookie, there is no easy record. Mine was an open class...I ran it because people said turbos blow up Harleys and street ridden hacks are slow... The blue piece of paper wasn't what I was out for. I went to prove a turbo Harley can survive Bonneville and that a real street sidecar rig could actually do better than freeway speed and could hold that speed. I was glad to establish a record in the open class, then I played with my computer and ran a bit faster to bump it.... The things I learned about the reality of this type of Racing amazed me... Like seeing bikes with half the power as another run much much faster... That what I thought I knew about Racing doesn't apply to Bonneville at all. Conventional race setups don't work like they should out there. Most of all I learn to respect every man or woman who races there. Record or not. Soft record or 300mph record its all the same. the folks who hold any record poured their souls into it and probably a great deal of money to... So to call a racers record soft and talk down on it at all is insulting and honestly poorly honors the greats who have raced there through out history. Anyone involved should honor our forefathers of speed and respect and support all the racers out there... Doesn't matter if they get a record ever, bottom line is they are trying. Slow record fast record doesn't matter either, it's the recognition that someone put in the effort and could do it more than once...

There is no soft record, just a beginning point to grow a class.
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« Reply #164 on: March 24, 2014, 08:01:11 PM »

"soft" like any other adjective is a matter of perspective.......

i have a few records at Bonneville....and i can look everyone in the eye...with
all the honesty of my being...and say "THOSE RECORDS ARE SOFT"...!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....honeymoon there...wife induced 7 days before
SW so baby momma and daddy on time for tech inspection (and it was "time").....blood sweat and tears for over 22 yrs.....

bla bla bla....the records are SOFT.....!!!!!!!!!!

do I respect nearly anyone who has even tried to set a record...darn straight I do....

effort gets respected.....kudos....to all who try...

BUT some records and achievments are ALOT more respected than others.....

some records are "STOUT".....some are "STIFF"..... etc......its alot about perspective....

 at the end of the day......your/our satisfaction with what occurred is its own measure of success...how its viewed by others may be another realm altogether...Smiley

Joe Amo



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