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Author Topic: Motorcycle "Records" - Really??  (Read 35636 times)
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Dean Los Angeles
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« on: August 18, 2013, 12:47:02 PM »

There are a ton of legendary records set at Bonneville.
Poteet and Main at 437 this year. Unbelievable.
A few years ago the Buddfab motorcycle streamliner running 131 on 3 freakin cubic inches.

But this isnít about this.

Quote
The were something like 146 new records set - but strangely enough, 96 or so were by bikes and the rest by cars/trucks.  The usual is just the opposite of that -- lots more car records than bikes. n I don't know why there's a difference and none was offered.

Slim said that two days before the end of the meet. I count 109 bike records.

Itís because 29 of the records were bought. As soon as they paid the entry fee and ran on an open record.

But thatís not all.
I understand this. Itís called cherry picking. You find an open record or a slow record and run for it. But itís hardly competitive. I give everybody credit for coming out and setting a record. Itís not the easiest thing to do, even on an open record.

Except for the guys resetting the 650 P-P record , Every record set had a faster record in a slower category.

Analysis:
fuel Ė faster than gas
blown Ė faster than unblown
partial streamlined Ė faster than unstreamlined
streamliner Ė faster than partial streamlined
bigger cc Ė faster than smaller cc
sidecar Ė well . . . sidecar. Numbers way out of proportion to the real world.
pushrod/vintage Ė because pushrod/vintage

37 pushrod records
39 vintage records
17 sidecar records
39 blown records
29 open records
40 under 100 mph (50cc unstreamlined gas record 85 mph - 29 didnít even make that.)
Most a combination of the above
Only 8 without one of the above.
3 were in the same class and re-setting the record. 4 others ditto.

Fastest 25 analyzed. The rest donít break the pattern.

VehEntry NameEngineBody No handicapPushrodVintageSidecarBlownNo recordOld RecordNew RecordDriver NameComment
8269BJim Hoogerhyde / SFMC1000CCAPS-F  x221.583222.850Suzuki239 gas record
1648BSan Diego Motorcycles1000CCAPS-F  x221.583222.756239 gas record
8269BJim Hoogerhyde / SFMC1000CCAPS-F  x218.323221.583Suzuki239 gas record
3419BScott Guthrie Racing2000CCAPS-BF xx0.000220.595Suzuki236 unblown
3411BScott Guthrie Racing1650CCSC-G   x175.481218.420Suzuki226 partial streamlined
3418BScott Guthrie Racing2000CCAPS-BG x170.465215.813Suzuki252 unblown
8081BCostella/Cunha/Bassano650CC SCS-F  xx0.000197.036Tim CunhaWithout the sidecar would be running against a 1962 230 mph record.
3399BTeam Bennett LSR1650CCAPS-PG x172.591196.843H/D226 non pushrod
3414BScott Guthrie Racing2000CCA-BG   x134.428190.736Suzuki197 unblown record
1016BDestination / Huff1350CCAPS-PG x177.998184.464HD/Buell219 non pushrod
1016BDestination / Huff1350CCAPS-PG x184.464181.397Buell219 non pushrod
2931BPaul Friebus1000CCMPS-VBGxx167.944180.659H/D182 unblown unstreamlined
8080BCostella/Cunha/Bassano650CC SCS-G  xx0.000176.547Suzuki196 partial streamlined 210 streamliner. 
6661BStoney FritzUNLIM A-PBG  xxx0.000174.742Yamaha171 unblown 650 record
5154BTeam Subtle Crowbar1350CCMPS-PG x172.479173.163Moto Guzzi223 non pushrod
2469BJay Allen Racing2000CCA-PG   x169.966172.414S & S Cycle197 non pushrod
1021BShunji Yokokawa650CC P-P    x169.684170.821Honda1.137 mph over record * These guys were racing!
858BACAT / Butler / Erion / Hobbs650CC P-P    x169.684170.654Honda.970 mph over the record - see above *
858BACAT / Butler / Erion / Hobbs650CC P-P    x167.319169.684Honda2.365 mph bumped record see above *
2169BJay Allen Racing2000CCA-PF   x169.309169.330S & S201 non pushrod
931BPaul Friebus1000CCMPS-VBFxxx0.000168.652H/D195 unblown unstreamlined
2931BPaul Friebus1000CCMPS-VBGxx145.410167.944H/D182 unblown unstreamlined
858BACAT / Butler / Erion / Hobbs650CC P-P    x165.994167.319Honda1.325 over record - see above *
9876BSperanza Brant Robinson2000CCSC-PF  xx146.196162.424Total Performance214 non sidecar pushrod
1350BBonneville Bobber1350CCM-VBF  xxx0.000159.420H/D
810BZen Motorcycle1350CCM-PBG  xx155.897158.642H/D
1581BJim Leininger650CC APS-PF x128.231156.389Honda
3358BBonneville Bobber1350CCMPS-VBGxxx0.000152.622H/D
4451BBob Lewis1350CCM-VG   x149.496152.456H/D
9011BDouble Vision1350CCAPS-VF x135.438151.448Triumph
445BBob Lewis1350CCMPS-VG x110.801150.998H/D
3350BBonneville Bobber1350CCM-VBG  xxx0.000150.548H/D
632BLeTop-Baloo Racing Team500CC MPS-BG x143.298149.800Kawasaki
1358BBonneville Bobber1350CCMPS-VBFxxx0.000149.676H/D
4451BBob Lewis1350CCM-VG   x101.955149.496H/D
7134BPerformance Indian1350CCA-VG   x132.338148.012Indian
632BLeTop-Baloo Racing Team500CC MPS-BG x120.507143.298Kawasaki
901BDouble Vision1350CCAPS-VG x128.241140.210Triumph
3931BPaul Friebus1000CCMPS-VG x126.059139.048H/D
797BDan Wagner650CC MPS-PF x133.998135.891Honda
1580BMarc Leininger650CC A-PF   x167.542134.849Honda
1110BScott Guthrie Racing750CC P-PPB  xxx0.000133.625Honda
1602BCorey Bertelsen250CC SC-G   x120.016133.324Honda
2602BCorey Bertelsen250CC SC-F   x125.101133.305Honda
3413BScott Guthrie Racing750CC M-PBF  xx129.937133.133Honda
3412BScott Guthrie Racing750CC M-PBG  xx129.134131.298Honda
1582BJim Leininger650CC A-PG   x126.976130.713Honda
1102BScott Guthrie Racing750CC A-PBG  xx111.791130.208Honda
1141BAnders Jonsson650CC APS-PF x128.231130.181GSO
1114BScott Guthrie Racing750CC A-PBF  xx111.791128.822Honda
7734BRed Cup Screamer250CC MPS-BG x99.445127.714Yamaha
1134BRed Cup Screamer250CC M-BG   x98.475126.607Yamaha
735BDave Arnold1000CCM-PBF  xx125.922126.231H/D
209BJXN Racing350CC MPS-BF x115.015123.115Joel Jackson
7919BBill Anderson650CC SC-PG  xx121.042121.553Weslake
837BJXN Racing350CC MPS-BG x102.643121.178Yamaha
867BJXN Racing350CC M-BG   x100.294120.097Yamaha
969BJXN Racing350CC M-BF   xx0.000119.103Yamaha
330BLouis Wilson350CC MPS-BF xx0.000115.015Yamaha
9317BPaul Friebus500CC A-VF   x110.729111.839H/D
4997BSaline Turner KTC500CC A-VF   x110.152110.729Triumph
194BGeorge Nachtsheim650CC APS-PBGxx98.873110.352Triumph
1189BBrooks Motor Works500CC SC-VG  xx94.333106.719BMW
865BEcole De La Performance350CC A-VF   x105.454106.622AMC
665BBullet650CC P-PP   x106.490106.601BMW
8608BEcole De La Performance350CC A-VG   x88.830105.673AMC
740BPit Bull175CC P-P    x99.700104.449Honda105 mph 125cc record
8658BEcole De La Performance350CC APS-VF x97.511101.812AMC
5778BKamphuis Frank Z350CC APS-PBGxxx0.00098.873Buell
5777BKamphuis Auntmaria350CC A-PBF  xxx0.00097.964Buell
370BOMRA Bike #11650CCA-PBF  xxx0.00097.916H/D
1803BGoldwing Lyon Kubo2000CCSC-BG  xx87.94797.264Honda
5779BKamphuis Lanapottr350CC A-PBG  xx15.85196.975Buell
5771BKamphuis TL Kelly350CC APS-PBFxxx0.00093.474Buell
7865BEcole De La Performance250CC A-VF   x86.71592.221AMC
1476BTri-Mac-Speedsters100CC APS-BF x48.91091.659Yamaha
1856BRichard Krczal750CC SC-PG  xx90.84391.286Triumph
8688BEcole De La Performance350CC APS-VG x81.90386.818AMC
876BCanter / Rosenthal Racing250CC MPS-PF x80.75885.816Aermacchi
476BTri-Mac Speedsters100CC APS-BG x81.86984.533Yamaha
576BDarold Cummings175CC APS-PG x71.31984.476Gilera
376BBonneville Bantam125CC APS-VG x79.22084.440BSA
579BDarold Cummings175CC APS-PF x76.41884.324Gilera
8761BCanter & Rosenthal Racing250CC M-PF   x79.19883.148H/D
3751BBonneville Bantam125CC MPS-VF x61.32782.494BSA
621BBrooks Motor Works250CC MPS-VF xx0.00082.486BMW
571BDarold Cummings175CC A-PG   x72.28580.453Gilera
536BSportsman Flyer250CC A-PF   x78.04880.438Honda
376BBonneville Bantam125CC APS-VG xx0.00079.220BSA
375BBonneville Bantam125CC MPS-VG x42.23979.059BSA
4158BBrooks Motor Works350CC SC-VG  xx48.87978.428BMW
1627BBrooks Motor Works350CC SC-VF  xx68.24178.318BMW
679BJohn Stoner/No Sense LSR175CC M-BF   xx0.00075.828Honda
375BBonneville Bantam125CC MPS-VG x42.23975.106BSA
574BDarold Cummings175CC SC-PF  xx68.35875.009Gilera
474BDarold Cummings175CC SC-PG  xx68.66174.175Gilera
6779BJohn Stoner/No Sense Land Speed Racing175CC MPS-BF xx0.00073.086Honda
540BScott Baxter350CC SC-VF  xxx0.00068.241BSA
823BPrairie Drifters125CC MPS-VF x57.53361.327H/D
823BPrairie Drifters125CC MPS-VF xx0.00057.533H/D
3523BSac Speed Special125CC M-VG   x43.44952.353H/D
7052BRetarded Sparks Special175CC M-VF   xx0.00050.049H/D
7053BRetarded Sparks Special175CC MPS-VG xx0.00049.727H/D
3286BBmac LSR125CC MPS-BG x999.99945.526Honda
1962BSaline Tyson KTC100CC APS-VF xx999.99942.179AMC
286BBMAC LSR125CC MPS-BF xx0.00040.357Honda
1960BSaline Tyson KTC100CC SC-VG  xxx0.00036.744AMC
7960BSaline Tyson KTC100CC SC-VF  xxx0.00030.469AMC
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Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 12:58:24 PM »

Congratulations, Dean!

I have a bit of understanding of MC classes, and what you did took a lot of time and energy.  It may be hard for non-motorcycle readers to comprehend, and I'm sure that there'll be challenges to some of it.  But not to worry, there're still be lots of holes left to plug next year.

Thanx,
Stan
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 05:59:56 PM »

Well, I was chasing the 650cc MPS VBG, 119mph and a bit...

Did a 121.775mph to qualify...

Went to impound to be told I was in the wrong class...

I am now in 650cc APS VBF, that's an open record...

Tried for another qualifier as fast as the MPS one but my rear cylinder quit...

There's always next year... wink



Patrick



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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 06:19:39 PM »

Mr. Owl,
What did they gig you for?
BTDT, but  why?

Sam
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 07:11:35 PM »

 huh   I'm wondering if the daily runs listed by the SCTA from last week includes ALL the runs made. This year there certainly seems like a lot less car records. BUT when viewing the pictures of vehicles at the event I find no times listed for any runs for a number of them when studying the SCTA daily runs. Just wondering!
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 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 186.946
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 192.448
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Had
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 08:07:16 PM »

VERY impressive data organization and analysis  cheers

I think anyone would generally agree with your interpretation. Perhaps in 20 years all the open records will be filled, and there will be multiple competitive entries in every class, like the cars...

The 200 club minimum for this record is 205, not too far off.

399B   Team Bennett LSR   1650CC   APS-PG   196.843   

Dean
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 10:36:41 PM »

I am confused, or do not get the point presented. At one time all records for cars and bikes were open. Someone had to fill in the blanks. Now the open record is gone and those that want to up the speed will have to work a little harder. As far as push rod VS non-push rod, someone realized the push rod engines could not compete with overhead cam engines and divided the classes. Lump them together and the majority of push rod bikes might as well retire.
 I could be wrong and please correct me if I am. When Cliff Gullett broke the S-F 500cc record in 2008, it had been held by J. Thomas since 1958. Instead of removing Thomas' name from the record, they reclassified it to S-PF so he is still in the book. This has been talked about happening on the S-F 1000cc record. A current 1000cc overhead cam Streamliner should be able to break the record easily. If it does, the current record will be reclassified to S-PF or S-PVF so the current record holder will stay in the book.
 As far as smaller engines running faster than bigger engines, it happens every meet with cars and bikes.
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 01:07:33 AM »

Dean

Interesting analysis.   You certainly put a lot of time, effort and thought in compiling the info.
On one hand you imply that it is a problem allowing these records while on the other hand you give credit to those that set these records.   
I understand this. Itís called cherry picking. You find an open record or a slow record and run for it. But itís hardly competitive. I give everybody credit for coming out and setting a record. Itís not the easiest thing to do, even on an open record.
So , which is it?  Are these records that should be considered cheap, easily obtained and sub-parr.  Or are they records to be proud of because they were earned honestly under the current process for setting a record?

. . What is your solution to this situation?   Are you suggesting that we have minimums (like El Mirage or the 200mph club)?
Consider taking the analysis a little farther.    What happens when a new record is set by a Ďlowerí class bike that exceeds a existing record in (what should be) a faster class bike? 

An example from the car classes might be easier to illustrate.  Last year the C/BFMS record was set at 364mph which was much higher than the records in AA, A and B BFMS.   Did this new C class record in some way invalidate the records for the three Ďfasterí classes?  If someone comes out and is able to raise the record in, say A/BFMS, but not exceed 364mph C record, is that new A/BFMS record valid?

I guess my question is:  What is your definition of a "Competitive Record?"  And a follow-up question is: "What do you propose be done to assure that only competitive records are allowed?"
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 09:53:32 AM »


But thatís not all.
I understand this. Itís called cherry picking. You find an open record or a slow record and run for it. But itís hardly competitive. I give everybody credit for coming out and setting a record. Itís not the easiest thing to do, even on an open record.


Really ?  " Cherry picking "  ?

In late 2011 when we decided to find a record to break.(Yes we actually did our homework to build a car for a class to be competitive in) the listed record for FGC was 114 mph ( 2008). I thought " hell I can build a near stock Pinto to run that fast" Good thing we didn't because the record got bumped to 162.4 mph in 2011 and wasn't in the book I was looking at. Our Lincoln reset the record by 2.5 mph- 164.845.


I don't think the guys who reset the "soft" record of 114 were "Cherry Picking". they found a soft record and reset it, just like anyone else had the opportunity to do.

Records are set to be broken, we hope to reset a few more in years to come.
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 10:31:30 AM »

Alot of the guys running smaller bikes are working as hard or harder than anyone there with some interesting "twists " on things at times. And having just as much fun!
When we first brought the 750 to the salt one of the reasons for the engine size was the  larger displacement classes had some stout records and the 750 ones were more reachable, was that cherry-picking? I call it strategy.
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 10:43:22 AM »

I am confused, or do not get the point presented. At one time all records for cars and bikes were open. Someone had to fill in the blanks. Now the open record is gone and those that want to up the speed will have to work a little harder. As far as push rod VS non-push rod, someone realized the push rod engines could not compete with overhead cam engines and divided the classes. Lump them together and the majority of push rod bikes might as well retire.
 I could be wrong and please correct me if I am. When Cliff Gullett broke the S-F 500cc record in 2008, it had been held by J. Thomas since 1958. Instead of removing Thomas' name from the record, they reclassified it to S-PF so he is still in the book. This has been talked about happening on the S-F 1000cc record. A current 1000cc overhead cam Streamliner should be able to break the record easily. If it does, the current record will be reclassified to S-PF or S-PVF so the current record holder will stay in the book.
 As far as smaller engines running faster than bigger engines, it happens every meet with cars and bikes.

In 2010 at the Bub the Vincent streamliner with side car made two passes, 212mph and 204mph.  The bike set an open record, but in my infinite wisdom I declined the record.  I felt that it was too slow for what I had.  I had clutch problems with the second run, which was the 204mph run.  We left the streamliner in Wendover, I took the clutch home to Kansas and returned to compete at WOS.  Two runs netted a 191.303mph average, which was slower than the two Bub runs.  My pit crew would've put knots on my head if I didn't take the 191.303mph record.  So that's that.  Take it for what it's worth.

                              Max 
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 11:03:25 AM »

Bring back minimums for Bonneville...(like we had back in the 1980's).....But SCTA/BNI in their wisdom wanted more entry dollars......so all the open records in the M/C and sidecar classes......................................
PS.  How fast would these sidecar "records" have been with a passenger or the 60kg (132lbs) as required for world international speed trials?Huh??.....................
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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 11:14:01 AM »

I really don't get the point to this thread smiley

I have met a lot of good racing folks out on the salt. Each and every one seem to have dedicated a lot of time and effort into building and preparing their vehicle for racing.

It takes the same effort and thinking to build some of the 50MPH vehicles as it does for the much faster cars and bikes. To me every class has it's own challenges, and there is no way I'd belittle anyone's accomplishment to run and set a class record, no matter what the class.

I see it as do the best you can do, and if there is already an established record in the class, go after it with " both feet ".

Thankfully there are still folks that are willing to put out the effort, or the sport couldn't exist much longer.

If you don't like what's going on, maybe you should look in the mirror.

Rouse
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« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 11:33:59 AM »

I really don't get the point to this thread smiley

I have met a lot of good racing folks out on the salt. Each and every one seem to have dedicated a lot of time and effort into building and preparing their vehicle for racing.

It takes the same effort and thinking to build some of the 50MPH vehicles as it does for the much faster cars and bikes. To me every class has it's own challenges, and there is no way I'd belittle anyone's accomplishment to run and set a class record, no matter what the class.

I see it as do the best you can do, and if there is already an established record in the class, go after it with " both feet ".

Thankfully there are still folks that are willing to put out the effort, or the sport couldn't exist much longer.

If you don't like what's going on, maybe you should look in the mirror.

Rouse

 cheers
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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 11:57:27 AM »

"It's because 29 records were bought"??  Really?  You're saying that the first ever land speed record was, because no one had run on it before, was bought?  Every record in the SCTA rule book HAD to have someone be the first to run on it.  So its safe to say that the first person to run on the AA/BFS "bought" his record.  I've run on an open record.  Did I buy it? Hell no I didn't.  I still had to make two runs and meet the tech requirements.  Had I known that open records could be bought it would have saved me a 1600 mile drive, $400 entry fee and all the expenses that go with Bonneville.  I could have simply asked Tom to mail me my record cert. 
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