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Author Topic: Questions about Omega class and electric motorcycles  (Read 10099 times)
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Brammofan
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« on: November 16, 2012, 09:52:47 AM »

I just ordered the SCTA 2012 rulebook but, pending its arrival I have a question.  Disclaimer - having run a couple forums of my own, I am aware that my ignorance of the general subject matter here makes me a target for ridicule, but I'm really trying hard to learn about the various classes, records, and venues.  So, with that disclaimer, my question:

Is there any reason why an electric motorcycle would be entered in the Omega class rather than the E or PE class? 

If it will help with the answer, here's the reason this question has come up.  An electric motorcycle with an APS frame recently ran at El Mirage.  When I looked at the time sheet online, I saw that it had the 'engine classification' of Omega and the body designation of APS-O (Now, I'm not sure whether the 'O' in 'APS-O' stands for Omega, or not). 

My "newbie" guess is that there was a previous record for electrics that this team decided it could not beat, but they discovered that the Omega class record was beatable. 

Any info or guidance would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.
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slimjim
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 10:13:00 AM »

Here's an equally ignorant answer. As far as we know it's the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle. If we ran it with no streamlining at all or the production superbike bodywork it would be in the same class.
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Brammofan
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 10:41:02 AM »

Here's an equally ignorant answer. As far as we know it's the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle. If we ran it with no streamlining at all or the production superbike bodywork it would be in the same class.
First of all, thanks slimjim for your reply.  Just to clarify, are you saying that the Omega class is the ONLY class for a "sit on" electric motorcycle?

The reason I ask is, according to a part of the rulebook (that I found online) that I'm reasonably certain that applies:
Quote
Chassis and Body Descriptions
ALTERED (A)
A: Altered is for specially constructed and purpose built race bikes.
B: INNOVATIVE AND UNIQUE DESIGN IS ENCOURAGED.
C: Aerodynamic front fairings are not allowed.
C: May use 1 or 2 engines of any design.
D: May use non-motorcycle engines. (PRIOR APPROVAL REQUIRED)
ALTERED PARTIAL STREAMLINER (APS)
Same as Altered(A) with:
A: Aerodynamic fairings allowed. The rider must be visible per the rules.
B: Modified Class motorcycles with custom APS fairings fall into APS.
C: May use 1 or 2 engines of any design.
D: May use non-motorcycle engines.

So that's why this bike was "APS" - it was definitely not a "production" model.  But the "O" in "APS-O" -- is that the designation for "Omega"?  If so, then I suppose my question is, why was the bike not classed as APS-E?

The rules:
Quote
ENGINE CLASSES FOR MODIFIED AND ALTERED MOTORCYCLES
7.D.4.19 Electric (E):
Same as class (PE) with unlimited design and modifications allowed.
7.D.4.20 Class Ω / Omega(O):
An engine using a thermodynamic cycle other than Otto, Two Cycle or Diesel. This class includes steam and turbine engines. Entry must comply with all applicable frame class requirements. Entrant must submit complete power plant details to the technical committee for safety evaluation at least 45 days prior to the meet.


and then, this section, which would seem to require that the electric motorcycle be designated as, well, an electric motorcycle:

Quote
7.K Electric Motorcycles
The LTA, in cooperation the NEDRA (National Electric Vehicle Drag Racing Association) has developed EV motor classes to allow for a compilation of land speed records from around the globe specific to electric powered vehicles. While we do maintain an affiliation with the NEDRA, it does not extend beyond the sharing of records.
The NEDRA rules are specific to ELECTRIC DRAG RACE VEHICLES. NEDRA members must comply with all LTA competition rules and regulations to compete at LTA sanctioned events; just as they must comply with all NHRA rules at NHRA events.
The rules below are a combination of NEDRA and LTA rules. LTA rules have been substituted where the LTA rule must be followed. Any rule on which NEDRA is mute shall be governed by the LTA rules in section 2 and 3. If any discrepancy is found between rulebooks, the LTA supersede all NEDRA rules.
NEDRA Class Validation:
While all electric vehicles will compete in an appropriate LTA class for LTA records, the EV Technical Director will certify the NEDRA class for their records. For NEDRA record certification, participants must be NEDRA members.
Electric Power Class Designation:
Electric power shall be designated in the LTA records as a fuel type: i.e. M/E-48 = Modified/Electric-48 volt.

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Seldom Seen Slim
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 10:44:40 AM »

Wait a minnit -- I'm cornfused.  You've started the query under the El Mirage Rules thread -- and you're quoting the Loring Timing Acura'n rulebook.  In which sanctioning body/venue are you interested?
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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Brammofan
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 10:51:23 AM »

Ah... there's my problem.  embarassed

Perhaps I better wait until my SCTA rulebook arrives in the mail. 
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dw230
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 10:55:09 AM »

Ah ha! As you stated you are a newbie and therefore have made the common mistake that the organizations have some sort of rulebook consistancy. The LTA uses a modified ECTA rulebook. LTA runs 1 and 1.5 mile events on pavement. The ECTA runs 1 mile events on pavement. The SCTA runs 1.3 mile events on dirt. The SCTA-BNI and USFRA run 1, 3 & 5 mile events on salt. SCTA & USFRA use the same rulebook and record database.

The SCTA does not list the E(electric) engine class as an option. And, yes - the O stands for Omega, electric, steam, diesel, etc., any non-Otto cycle power plant.

Hope this helps,
DW
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 11:04:26 AM by dw230 » Logged

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Brammofan
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 11:03:13 AM »

Thanks. Yes that does help.

I spent all morning over on the El Mirage pages of the SCTA site and was in "learn all you can" mode.  I probably should have done the same at landracing.com before posting. 

Thanks again.
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JustaRacer
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 01:26:29 PM »

I'm an electric newbie, but have both a MC and Car that run off batteries getting dressed up.

Electric classes aren't well-defined yet for the SCTA.  There are max weights for cars that are way low, but no limits whatsoever on bike weights.  There are no production-based classes, nor a definition of the difference between a motorcycle motor and a car motor.  You can currently (har) run unlimited weight and motors on bikes.  Cars are limited.  Kind of backwards.  There are no safety rules yet either that address the differences in technology.  

The odds of getting more classes aren't good, I've never met anyone in 5 years who got a class added.

There is a lot of electric racing going on today, and lots of venues to race your electric.  I'm almost done with our electric MC, but will Run For Fun, or T/O, just for kicks and to get a time-slip.





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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 01:33:32 PM »

Pat,

Your second paragraph is full of a lot of no.There are also no entries or expressed interest in expanding the category. The exisiting weight breaks for cars are FIA mandated.

DW
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Dean Los Angeles
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 01:48:33 PM »

The first part of the class description concerns the frame class.
P production - M modified production - A custom or race.
Production is showroom stock appearing - internal modifications (mostly) allowed. Partial streamlining or not doesn't factor in, as long as it was sold that way.
M and A classes are with no streamlining.
The PS modifier adds partial streamlining.
Also S streamliner, SC sidecar and SCS sidecar streamliner.

The dash separates the engine class.
P production (always gas) showroom stock appearing - internal modifications allowed.
F fuel - G gas - B blown
P pushrod - V vintage
and O omega

Don't expect rules to be changed for electric anything. Zero interest. These are car guys.
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JustaRacer
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:42 PM »

nevermind
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 02:29:53 PM by JustaRacer » Logged

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JustaRacer
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2012, 07:37:03 PM »

Pat,

Your second paragraph is full of a lot of no.There are also no entries or expressed interest in expanding the category. The exisiting weight breaks for cars are FIA mandated.

DW

I respect your opinion Dan, and I know you mean well.

The FIA rules aren't Elmo rules.  A serious 1100lb 4 wheeled electric racer can be made under FIA, but not SCTA. 

The FIM rules are weight based as well, but the 3-4 MC electric classes aren't weight based.

Nothing I posted was incorrect based on the RTFM.

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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 10:45:22 AM »

Pat,

My point was that when the car, non-Otto cycle, classes were put together well, actually combined, the decision was made to base them on a weight allowance. The rules makers at the time had no direction as to which way to go. The final decision was to use the International standard. I am aware that there are differences between cars and bikes. The bike Omega classes were to be based on a single chassis configuration. I have no idea why we are where we are now.

DW
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slimjim
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 11:16:03 AM »

I have no idea what the classes are in other sanctioning bodies since I'm only interested in running with the SCTA for now. I've heard that our bodywork wouldn't be legal with the FIM or AMA rules anyway so if you planned on running both you should look into that. I think the FIM/AMA record is around 190mph (I'm guessing here) and the SCTA record is 215mph. At this time we have no plans to run the BUB event but we are going to be at speedweek.
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JustaRacer
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 11:23:15 AM »

Pat,

My point was that when the car, non-Otto cycle, classes were put together well, actually combined, the decision was made to base them on a weight allowance. The rules makers at the time had no direction as to which way to go. The final decision was to use the International standard. I am aware that there are differences between cars and bikes. The bike Omega classes were to be based on a single chassis configuration. I have no idea why we are where we are now.

DW

Fair enough.  While electric racing didn't get big until recently, it has been going on for over 20 years from what I read.  I'm so new to the game, that I didn't even race an electric car until this month.  I was impressed.  

It's going to get a lot bigger, and if it migrates to the LSR in number, you are going to have actual production cars running against streamliners, and 4000lb motorcycles running against bikes with license plates.  The more weight, the more HP.  Battery + motor weight = HP.  Unlike cars, there is no displacement, fuel, or supercharging.  There are 2 ways to deal with it.  Volts of battery and weight.  Volts is like displacement, and weight is like fuel/supercharging.  I can run 200v, but without a lot of batteries, it can't make big power.  I can run 48v, but at a fixed weight, can't go very fast.  

At some future point, it will have to be either be adjusted, or just reduce electric entries.  Few can afford a full unlimited streamliner project.  

There are a lot of experts in this field and I'm not one of them yet.  If classes get altered in this area, you need to find somebody with experience, but won't cherry pick rules for their team.  

IMO, the DT class was a similar issue.  Minitrucks, unibodies, miditrucks, and full sized trucks run in the same class with the same engines.  You'd have to be an idiot to run a full sized truck.  But some people will run what they like to drive, regardless of class structure.  I don't buy or build a racecar or bike for a specific class, never have.  I buy what I like, and dial up the performance.

It is refreshing to see that many of the later DT entries have been full sized trucks.  It shows I'm not unique in that school of thought.

While it might be a Band of Idiots, they have fun.  Hopefully electric racers will see it the same way.  Running with a major handicap just to have fun.

I think that is the most common bond in sportsman level racing, to have fun regardless.  Not number of wheels, body shape, or locomotion.  Adrenaline.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 11:31:18 AM by JustaRacer » Logged

My doctor told me to go out and kill people.
Well, sort of.  He told me to reduce the stress in my life.
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