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Author Topic: Two Vincents visit Germany  (Read 38027 times)
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2012, 10:50:29 PM »

22 Feb from Hartmut
I plan to caseharden the inner plate and the shaft. So I have to be sure that it all works as desired as it is quite hard to machine it again.  The proud length of splines now is 55mm or 2.16" outboard of the inner clutch plate (the one with the 6 bolts)
Are you saying that you want the outer plate with the fingers and pressure plate sitting outboard of those 2,16" by 1/32"? So the bearing in the outer plate sits 1/32" in front of the outer end of splines? If so I will lose about 1/4" of spline length - not desired. So I will machine a step of about 1/4" length in front of the splines with the inner diameter of the bearing in outer plate. This gives you the whole length of splines to play with.
Is that okay for you? I will make a drawing and send that to you - hope that will make clear what I mean.

reply from Max
We're almost there, but not quite. 

The full length of the splines will be utilized when the first installation of the clutch plates are made.  The quarter inch shoulder which you suggest would not allow for retaining the .040 gap of the clutch plates during wear.  Clutch plates wear, shims are removed, and the outboard clutch plate moves inboard to retain .040 gap.  If you were to shoulder the main shaft 1/4", this wouldn't allow the outboard plate to float on the shaft when adjustments are made.  With the 1/4" shoulder removed, this allows 1/4" of clutch wear to be corrected.  After 1/4" of clutch wear, the spline shaft would stand out proud 1/4". 

So the absolute minimum of adjustable shimming of the outer plate can be no less than 1/4".  Probably 3/8" of shimming would be more desirable.  Ensure when threading the six studs on the inner clutch plate, that the studs are long enough and that the thread length is long enough to accommodate the full float of the outer clutch plate through it's adjustment phase. 

After 1/4" of clutch wear, clutch plates will be replaced with new, the clutch basket properly re-shimmed, allowing .040 of clutch plate clearance, and the reduction of shimming starts all over, retaining .040 clutch plate clearance during wear.


reply from Hartmut
Here is the sketch - hope you understand what I mean. I will machine a step of 1/4" wide on the shaft where the ball bearing rests on the shaft. Free usable length of splines is 2,16" and the pressure plate that is worked by the fingers is 0,04" outboard of the splines when the bearing is resting against the step.

reply from Max
That would work for awhile, but after each run the fingers would change their relation of movement.  Their movement would become more so.  The floating pressure plate would increase the .040 movement required for clutch engagement.  The physics of spring pressure increases as the spring is compressed.  The clutch adjustment is made considering two factors, spring pressure and the counteracting of that spring pressure with the centrifugal force of the finger weights.  The movement of .040 is determined by the rpm of the clutch.  If the fingers have to move the clutch pressure plate more than .040, the overall pressure on the clutch at 4000 rpm is reduced by the amount of spring pressure poundage incurred by the compression of the springs in that amount.  So it's important to keep the .040 clearance during the clutch wear phase, because if you didn't the clutch wouldn't have enough clutch pressure to hold at high rpm and full horsepower torque.  We have smoked a couple of clutches in the past due to this phenomenon.

Reply from Hartmut
Okay Max
I completely forgot the wear taking place!!!!! Sorry about that. I will turn the shaft to 1" all the way to the splines - thus you get a bit more than 1/4" to compensate wear. If the outermost friction plate only sits 3/4 of its spline length on the splines you have almost 3/8" of wear taking place before the bearing will come near the splines.
Another question: is there enough space inside the belly pan for the wider clutch?


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2012, 11:08:19 PM »

23 Feb from Hartmut
The steel plate is the same thickness as the old aluminium plate but with the reduced diameter where it bolts to the sprocket I thought it will get extra strength by hardening. However I have changed my mind - the steel is anyway far stronger and before the plate can dish it needs to bend the six long bolts and distance tubes as well. This cannot happen by the force generated of the fingers so I leave it as is. Talked to Mike this morning and he will do his CNC stuff again when all parts are ready for him to machine.
 
Vincent motors seem to become my bad habit - haven't finished the big one and yet another one came in for repair  grin


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2012, 11:23:11 PM »

27 Feb from Hartmut
The cover is modified and fits the rest. The 3 big nuts of the pins fit under the cover, the smaller screws need their bores countersunk about 1mm to have them not resting against the outer cover. Neat. Tomorrow I will finish it and get the seals at the correct places - the front is about 1/16" off - the rear much more. Do you think I need to fit another bearing on the rear crank between blower pulley and cover?  I think the crank with that big spacer (outer diameter 2 1/4") should be strong enough to handle the load of the blower....
Let me know.

from Max
The front crankshaft being 1/16" too long on the spacer length, is actually a good thing.  Leave it long, that'll give us an extra 1/16" engagement on the starter nut drive.  A different story on the rear crankshaft.  That has to be exact to ensure blower belt alignment.  Not enough sugar for a dime to employ an extra outboard carrier bearing on the rear crankshaft.  Here are my calculations to support that determination: 

The blower's rpm is approximately 10,000 rpm at maximum engine revs.  Engine to blower ratio is 1.63 to 1.  Years ago I asked Weind Superchargers what the max rpm would be, and they said around 10,000 before cavitation.  In other words, when it won't pump any more air.  It takes about 100 hp to turn that blower 10,000 rpm.  I'd guess the torque factor would be around 75 ft. lbs.  That 2 1/4" sleeve on the 1 1/2" crankshaft main shaft would make it a virtual impossibility for any crankshaft flex in the approximate 2 1/2" distance from bearing support to Gilmore belt pulley inner surface.  So no additional support bearing required. 

Now what you'll have Hartmut, and you fully realize, is the inner primary and outer primary cover being bolted to the engine cases with no aligning dowels.  There is only one stress point on the covers, and that's the through stud of the pivot point of the primary chain adjuster.  This is a good design, and eliminates possible heat differentials of various components of inner and outer covers, which could cause stress deflection of crankshaft bearing supports.  Another thing is that sealing surfaces will stay sealed with a non-stress design. 

One thing I'm planning to do on this side of the pond is to remove the blower shaft, and duplicate it so we'll have a spare.  I recall that we broke one one year, and that put us on the trailer.  I remember increasing it's size, however, and identifying the material I was making it from.  Same will go for the new shaft, it'll be made from 4130 or 4340, and of course, heat treated. 



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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2012, 11:38:39 PM »

5 Mar from Hartmut
A bit news for you: talked to Mr Baier about the pistons and cylinders - they got them cleaned up enough to remove almost all traces of valleys in the liners. The pistons get a coating thick enough to compensate. I will probably need slightly bigger rings to compensate the wider bore. What ring end gap do you want?
Meanwhile I drilled the holes for the clutch into the inner plate and the clutch sprocket. My digital readout has  among other goodies a nice little function: just enter the diameter and number of holes and it guides you to each - so we can remove and fit the clutch in any position as the holes all line up perfectly.
Tomorrow I will turn the two sprockets for the RH chain drive and get the rear broached this week and then turn it down to proper size. I realized I could put on one more tooth on the gearbox input sprocket - that would make the chain run almost straight with a minimum of tensioner needed. Any reason not to do so? Any variation in input speed will be compensated in the gearbox so nothing really changes.
 
reply from Max
The reason this build is turning out better in many respects than ever before is precision.  The clutch bolting to the inner sprocket for instance, this in years past required alignment, and it would only go on in one position.  My build was done with a rotary table and a Chinese mill drill, not the best combination for accuracy. 

Boy, we dodged a bullet by the cylinders being salvageable.  That'll save us a lot of labor, and there's always the possibility of turning something into a bucket of worms.  Ring gap has always been kept between .015 and .020.  Those figures have worked in the past, so there's no reason to change in my opinion.  If you have to get rings, try to make the scraper ring, the second one down from the top, a gapless ring.  This seems to have helped ring/liner blow by a lot. 

I can't remember, but I think I tried to increase the transmission drive sprocket by one tooth.  Couldn't get the chain on, if I recall.  It might be just my imagination. 

I'm not so sure that we shouldn't keep the number of teeth as is.  Two reasons.  The transmission would spin faster in relation to crankshaft and rear wheel rpms.  As you know the faster you can spin the transmission the stronger it becomes in it's ability to transfer a given amount of torque.  The other reason is that the water brake during dyno testing, would turn at a higher rpm, which in turn makes the efficiency of the water brake more so.  Dyno testing is conducted with the transmission in high gear.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2012, 11:46:49 PM »

7 Mar from Hartmut
The clutch is almost finished now. I machined the inner sprocket completely and finished the inner plate as well. Then I made 6 new bolts from high tensile steel rod. They have a short thread slightly bigger as your 1/2" bolts to screw into the plate where I will lock them with loctite and a pin. The outer plate was checked for accuracy of the bores - they were pretty much spot-on but too small as your 1/2" bolts were 3,5 thou smaller as an 1/2". So I took the old adjustable head into the machine and milled the bores out to the proper 1/2" plus 2 thou. Now the outer plate slides in without too much effort. In the pic you can see the 4 plate clutch, bolts are plenty long enough to accommodate another pair of plates. Did I say I turned your thread of 20TPI on the bolts so that you are not getting confused and can use the old nuts wink
Bernhard has been here today and checked my progress - says he feels this thing should work now. From next week on he is working on the gearbox and says it should be ready to assemble in 4 weeks. I will take the engines apart this weekend and do all the welding and threading etc to make the left half ready for some paint and final assembly. Now I am waiting for the pinions that Terry / Somer have sent as I want to finish the right side asap.
BTW - the clutch shaft is long enough to fit a proper axial ball bearing +crown nut - this should be at least as strong as the flimsy roller thing. If you agree on the axial ball bearing I will order a couple and fit them to the outer clutch plate and make a suitable LH nut with a fine thread like 20 TPI - this should be fine enough to adjust the clutch in fine steps.

reply from Max
 I designed the clutch so as to have a ball bearing affixed to the outer clutch plate, captured by a ring.  This prevents any float of the outer bearing race in the outer clutch plate bore.  This bearing, when the clutch is adjusted, must be able to float, i.e., inner bearing race to clutch shaft.  There has to be a separate bearing that adjusts the clutch float.  I keep that to about .010 to .020.  This bearing must be a thrust bearing.  The thrust load of that bearing is one side of the thrust, being the surface of the outer clutch plate.  The outer clutch plate, when fully engaged, flexes, taking up the .010 static clutch float on the clutch shaft, thereby applying pressure on the other side of the thrust bearing to the adjustable clutch retaining nut. 

Now that we're on that subject, if the full adjustment stroke of this nut is, say, 3/8", and the castellated nut has a root depth of 1/4", it will require two holes drilled into the shaft separate distances from the end of the shaft so the full 3/8" of the float can be utilized. 

I tried to call you today, but no answer.  This particular operation, as far as the bearings are concerned, we pretty much have to be on the same page, so it all works.  I hope I explained it well enough, if not, you have my phone number. 

Boy was I glad to hear that Bernhard O.K.'d your handiwork.  It all looks real good Hartmut, you're doing a fine job.  Can't wait to see the progress start on the transmission.  Boy.  I've been blessed by you guys and many others.  Stainless was over today, and he's going to buy all of the needed tuning stuff.  He figures the cost to be about $1500.  Thanks to all of you.

I just got back from the yard.  Got the material for the push prong.  Will start working on that tomorrow.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2012, 11:53:18 PM »

12 Mar from Hartmut
Weather is fine, bikes want to come in for repair -so far I refused most jobs until the liners engine is finished. My electrical wire to the shed is broken so I have to spend a day or so to dig out some earth, cut some concrete and install a new wire - what a crap!
Got the gears back from nickel plating - internally only, the outside was coated with a special sealer. They were a sliding fit on the cranks and I wanted it a little tighter and maximum concentric. So I had a couple thou plated into the bores and have now ground out the rear gear to be a tight fit on that crank. Tomorrow I grind the front and make the cover for the seal on the rear crank.Than the gear train is completely finished. Mr Baier phoned me and said he was ill for a week or so but my pistons and cylinders are ready this week. Today I was at the customs office and picked up Somer Hookers parcel with all the 1/2 time pinions - Thanks Somer!
Next step: take the engines apart, fix all the small jobs on the left side like finishing the chain tensioner, weld another crack that I found, make it all look a bit neater and start with the right halves. Don't expect much work here.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2012, 12:00:00 AM »

13 Mar from Hartmut

Didn't do much today as I was outside digging for the broken electrical wire. Anyway - this evening I worked on the clutch. Finished the clutch shaft with a LH thread 20TPI on the 1" stub and made a nut for it that incorporates the center for the new thrust bearing. Then I cut those 10 screws for the clutch to length and undercut the first 1/4" of thread in the clutch sprocket as the screws have almost 3/8" solid shank. Thus they can hold a bit more and give a little rest of safety if they were getting lose on a run.
All for today - tomorrow I will dig a bit more in the yard and hopefully get that electric crap sorted. In the evening I finish that nut and start dismantling the engines to get the left side finished completely.
 


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2012, 12:09:05 AM »

14 Mar from Hartmut

Finally I found time this evening to take the engines apart and work on the left half. Have welded all cracks and added some weld where the pin for the chain tensioner sits. Added two webs where the tensioner screw will be and filled that area in the case as well. Should be strong enough to withstand the deceleration of the liner under all circumstances. Clutch shaft is drilled and the nut finished - do you have a 2" spanner? I milled the slots about 4,5mm wide and 8mm high so a 5/32" pin slides through easily and can be adjusted 5/32". To make it possible to adjust this nut over a range of more than 1/4" I will make suitable spacers for the thrust bearing.The thrust bearing will sit in a cup on the outer clutch plate - keeps grease in and dirt out Thus the nut stays where it is more or less and any extra difference is taken out with a spacer washer.
All for today - I am tired as I spent the whole day outside digging the canal for the new electric wire to the shed - 12 yards with a lot of stones in between.
 
reply from Max
All looks good.  I like the idea of the cup.  Good thinking.  The nut design is also a good one, far stronger than a full castellated nut.  Will the adjusting bolts to the tensioner be threaded into aluminum with a fine thread, or are you planning to use a steel insert, NF female NC male thread?  In one of your posts you said there would be two adjusting screws.  Is this still your plan? 

One thing I might suggest, that you give a bit more valley between the forward section of the primary and the after section of the primary, at the apex of the cover.  This will allow oil in the primary to find it's desired level, with full free flow between the two oil valleys.  One being the valley below the clutch sprocket, the other being the valley below the front engine drive gear.  The monster chain acts as a scoop and tries to void the rear and fill the forward.  We don't want to fill the forward portion of the primary and only allow a trickle passage back to the rear of the primary.  Anyway just a thought. 



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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2012, 09:01:28 AM »

15 Mar from Hartmut
The tensioner is finished. As you can see in the pics I made a bigger thread where the pin enters the cases. The pin itself is 12mm (slightly less than 1/2"). On the pin sits a bush with a step to increase the face where it rests on the case.On the outer side a big washer completes the system. The tensioner blade stays free to turn on the bush but the bush and washer get compressed when the pin is tightened up. Next was the need for spreading the load as wide as possible and generate a strong thread. So I milled the welded-up area under the tensioner flat with a radiused end mill - thus creating a soft edge and no stress riser. The steel plate is more than 1/2" thick and carries the thread and has the same radius outside as the pocket. It is a perfect fit as it sits flat on the milled face without any play. Nice!
The aluminium of the case was drilled through and the steel plate drilled and threaded. Made a bolt from high tensile steel and a locknut with big surface facing the cases for extra strength. The locknut has its head opened up to accommodate part of the bolts hexagon as I wasn't sure if there is enough space when engine is in frame.  Anyway - all looks good and solid.
 


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2012, 09:23:33 AM »

More pics of the tensioner

Looking very good.  Hartmut, feel free to comment in here or add stuff....



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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2012, 09:47:04 AM »

Several posts ago Max mentioned we were getting some tuning equipment...
We are working with our newest sponsor AEM (http://www.aemelectronics.com/)
Here's the plan
AEM has a 4 channel A/F sniffer
 http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/4-channel-wideband-uego-controller-60/

The sniffer plugs into their data logger without using any of the input channels
http://www.aemelectronics.com/data-loggers-66/

We will also be logging EGT using their 4 channel amp and thermocouples
http://www.aemelectronics.com/engine-management-systems-9/4-channel-k-type-thermocouple-amplifier-32/

Luckily AEM recognizes LSR, Nathan Stewart (one of our own that I've known since he was a brat) works there and has been working with us to help us find the right parts to make this possible... and we got great discount for being racers. 
Thanks Nate
Thanks AEM
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2012, 11:00:54 AM »

More pics of the tensioner

Looking very good.  Hartmut, feel free to comment in here or add stuff....


Hey Stainless
I am much better on my tools than on this PC stuff. I cannot comment on my own work as that is your (all of you readers) duty. All I did so far was improve or strengthen where I thought it might be neccessary - all under the saying: "better be safe than sorry". So probably some of my parts are a bit overdressed but as far as I can say right now it should all work without problems - at least I gave it my best shot and hope that that will be enough to hold the motors together for a couple fast runs. Wouldnīt it be nice to have a good meeting this year and send Max home to start his book? wink
Thank you for your big support - I donīt know where we would be at without all your help over the time!!!!!

Cheers

Hartmut
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« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2012, 12:54:31 PM »

I truly look forward to inspecting the liner this August,
and please tell Harmut I enjoy seeing, and admiring his work.
A very skillfull and well planning engineer and machinist.

Drew Gatewood

Hello Drew - thanks for the kudos

Is there any differency between AMA and FIM scrutineering? I canīt remember - sorry! You are probably in the know of all the FIM stuff - I seem to recall that a couple things are different to the AMA procedure. If I can find the money for FIM entry I sure would like to go AMA AND FIM. I think this is possible?

Looking forward to your reply

All the best and see you in August!!!!

Cheers  Hartmut
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« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2012, 10:53:47 AM »

I guess it's time to catch up a little, we have the AEM data pieces, I will post some pics of it later, we found some space next to the fuel tank that will fit the boxes.  The plan is to mount and prewire everything on a plate and then mount the plate and final wire the equipment into the scooter. 

But let's get back to Germany...
22 Mar from Hartmut
Andy was here and helped the whole day, grinding, and filling the cases and covers where I ruined the old paintwork. Now the left side is ready for painting as I drilled all necessary holes, set a couple helicoils etc. Went to a nearby paint shop and asked for a colour match of the red parts - will get some paint mixed up next week.

Talked to Bernhard - we will have a meeting on Monday evening about to discuss his gearbox construction - if everything is as it should I guess we are making swarf again! A German classic bike mag is publishing a 5 page story about you and the liner and some pics of the rebuilt - maybe I can generate a bit money for the FIM thing as the mag will be printed in April. Have to go now and see the journalist and check what he has written.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
Stainless1
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Age: 66
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 6457


Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2012, 11:13:02 AM »

Between making a living and working on the scooter Hartmut has also been working on the plan to get the motors back to Max when he gets done.  With any luck they will arrive air freight in Dallas or Kansas City, and maybe at a very good rate since the normal cost is outrageous... more on this as things transpire.

22 Mar From Hartmut
I was planing on taking two rivets out of the old primary chain and use them for the master link of the new chain. Look what I found, I hope you can see it in the picture: the rivets are very worn on their shaft, probably due to binding in the rollers as they were not running properly over the sprockets - thus the side plates turned on the rivets! Seems we have to live with the clip on the master link but I can soft solder this for extra strength without disturbing the steel plates hardness.


* DSC01167.JPG (224.76 KB, 2592x1943 - viewed 141 times.)
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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