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Author Topic: Two Vincents visit Germany  (Read 37978 times)
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« on: March 04, 2012, 02:09:40 PM »

During the Bub last year the Black Lightning had a couple of engine issues that kept the bike from making successful passes.  Tuning problems, clutch problems, transmission problems, timing problems, primary chain tensioner problems... you know, the regular gremlins that keep you from getting down the course and setting a record.  The last pass resulted in a burned piston and no time left to repair the damage. 
Well Hartmut Weidelich, the rider from Germany may have let his mouth overload his.... well anyway Hartmut said he wanted to take the motors and transmission back home and go through everything.  His plan was to make the entire combo bulletproof... or actually Bonneville proof as we know it.
So a couple of weeks after we got back, after cleaning up the bike, Max and I pulled the motors and tranny.  Hartmut had a friend with a container leaving Oakland full of classic cars headed for Norway.  The problem was the container was loading in less than 10 days from the day we started pulling the motors.   Lots of international phone calls and calls to the shipping lady in California resulted in the decision to get the motors crated and quickly shipped out west. 
Max and I put together a materials list for a shipping crate, Max went to Home Depot, we were to meet the nest morning and get it packed. 
Luck prevailed and Ross Powers (mc2032) dropped by the house to check my shop progress (did I ever mention that Ross drew up the plans for my shop addition).  He agreed to meet me at Max's in the morning and help.
Well Ross showed up with a pallet and a few chunks of lumber in his truck, not to mention another set of building tools.  We cut the pallet down to size and had the motor crated by mid afternoon.  Max spent the next day stuffing every nook and cranny with spare parts he wanted to add, and Monday morning we put in the last structural members, screwed the lid down and rolled it (did I mention it weighed about 700 lbs) to the curb.  30 minutes later the FEDEX Freight truck rolled up for the scheduled pickup and the crate headed to Oakland for shipment to Germany.
It took a couple of months for the crate to get to Germany, and a while longer to get through the customs process but the got there.  I will post pictures of the progress the Hartmut has been sending back as time allows. 
For now all you get is this "back story"
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 04:33:31 PM »

Fine story about a fine project.  The Black Lightning's saga has been great all along, and now this adds to the enjoyment and excitement.  Keep us up to date if you will, please.  Best regards to the whole danged team, too.
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 08:58:48 PM »

I've seen a couple of photos of the work Hartmut is doing on the liner and it's impressive. Keep it up Hartmut.
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Stainless1
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 09:24:38 AM »

I'll get this started, and I hope Hartmut has time to fill in the blanks and post additional fotos if he has them... I don't have an arrival pic but the first batch starts with the crate unpacked and in the shop, then on to chunks.  The crate chunks can be seen in the background.
Number 2 in the front motor didn't survive the thrash.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 09:28:31 AM »

Cool build, and great start to a cool story!
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 09:34:58 AM »

A little aluminum plating on the valves of number 2.

More of the chunks, Hartmut plans to rebuild the transmission as well

Here is a bit of the Jan 16th email Hartmut sent with the pictures in the last 2 posts
"Here is news: took the heads off today. Rear piston of front engine is broken, smeared a bit alu into the bore, shrunk about 1mm in size. There must have been a lot of molten alu sprayed out the exhaustport before it broke as there is alu droplets around the exhaustvalve and in the port.The other three piston crowns look good, the bores too.Maybe that damned jet it that pot got blocked again while on the run.... The motor turns over freely without any harsh points - lets hope the crank is not damaged.
Tomorrow I will take off the geardrive between the cranks and take out the clutch and everything.
Then my buddy and me should be able to heave the rest onto my workbench to get it all apart.
Opened the gearbox today and did not like what I see. The gears look good but the drive coupling is a bit wobbly and the engaging teeth on gear # 2 and # 3 are very rounded off. When engaging them and giving some force on them the coupling ring wants to crook and go sideways a bit. This puts load on the selector fork. I figure I could make the engaging teeth much bigger and longer and make a bigger coupling ring as well. I suggest to make it only 6 or 8 engaging dogs with more play for easy and fast engagement - thus more strength and less rubbing before the gear slips into place. Then we would have at least 8mm engagement depth on #2 and #3. Now we only have 5mm - sorry for metric - conversion is 1" = 25,4mm.
My idea would involve the making of gear #2 and gear #3 and the coupling ring and maybe the inner splined thing as well. Will know for sure when I have it apart.
On wednesday a gearmaker visits me to have a look at my idea and next monday my buddy Bernhard (the car race engine builder) comes to check it out. I am sure we find a strong solution. "


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 09:57:16 AM »

From the 17th

"got all cylinders off. Upper piston rings are slightly rusted on #1 and #3 so are not free in the pistons - no problem. Now the more nasty stuff:
 
when I took the clutch off I saw that the modified seal was pushed out a bit at the bottom. Took the blowerdrive off and the front crank nuts etc to get the outer cover off. All 1/4" screws of the gear carrierplate lose, two of them broken off. Removed the inner big cover and out fell the chain tensioner - in pieces. Seems the weld did not hold it - will make one from solid material - no problem. We were lucky after all as the chain masterlink had lost its spring and outer link plate - found the linkplate and spring teared apart in the swarf at bottom of case. Thank god this chain has double plates!!!! The sprockets are worn away conmpletely due to the trash going through but as far as I can see right now no trash went through the gears in front and thus there is no crack in the cases - keep fingers crossed that I am right when everything is completely clean!
When checking the bearings I found the needlebearing behind the blower pulley outer race broken in 5 places. The bearings in the gears need to be replaced as well. I will make a new plate to carry those three pins for the gears and plan to incorporate the two cranks as well - thus we would gain strong support on both sides of the gears and the tendency to bend the engines apart under load will be gone. There is this tendency as the outer sinterbronce plates show heavy load and one or two setscrews have been sheared off while all others are lose. The rearmost pin is lose as well so will need to be replaced. Space is available and it will all fit under the existing cover.
Tomorrow I will take the timing cover internals out of both engines and split the cases. I plan on welding a plate of 6 to 8mm (to have something to mill flat after welding)  to the inner big cover to gain more space for the chain and the big seal. This will need to slim down the outer assembly of the front crank (no big deal, if I need I can leave the timing disc off and slim the washer and starter nut by about 1,5mm each - would give me the desired 6mm) the yoke for the starter might need a bit trimming to fit in front of the cover - thats it. On the rear crank I could use a narrower needle bearing and make a new carrier for it - thus the blower pulley will be where it is right now.
 
I would need those imperial bearings - more or less impossible and f#*#ing expensive to get here in Germany - I will give you the dimensions tomorrow and maybe you can find out a price in USA where I can order them cheaply. And I will need a handful of screws and helicoils of your american threads as well - will tell you when I am ready for it."

As you can see, forcing 10 times the original horsepower out of 60 year old motors can be a little hard on parts


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 10:03:18 AM »

This from Max...."Lots and lots of stuff that needs fixin'.  This job ain't for the faint of heart.  Truth is, if I would have taken the engines apart and found the extent of damage, I would have more than likely given up and had a very expensive paper weight out in my garage.  For this undertaking of repair it takes new blood, young blood, and "the fire in the belly".  Let it be known that Hartmut's the man."

Without a doubt this is going to be a large project for a guy that also has to make a living while he works on the beast.  Here are a couple more to go with the previous post


* chain.JPG (62.21 KB, 640x480 - viewed 140 times.)

* sprocket.JPG (40.4 KB, 640x480 - viewed 161 times.)
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2012, 10:17:08 PM »

Jan 18 from Hartmut
The motors are completely apart. See the shrapnel in the front engine? The rear crank was touching the timing case slightly - the alu looks polished halfway around the crank. Will give it a bit clearance on assembly. The rear rod of front engine had a bit alu spray on its upper end but I could scrape it away with a fingernail. Not enough heat there to worry as there is no discoloration. Anyway - both cranks turn nice and smooth - no work needed on them - PUHHH!!! Will check them for runout but I am pretty sure they are okay. Luckily both oil pumps still turn smoothly- will take them out tomorrow and check for wear but I guess they are still good for another "Go". I started on the left crankcases, remove all filler on the gasket surfaces. Will try to correct the warping between the two motors a bit by peening. When I get them cranks properly aligned I might add another connection between the cases for better strength. Had the first gearman here today - he gave me another useful contact for the gearbox pinions as he was unable to help. Still wait for Monday when I get the "audience" with Bernhard - the man is brilliant but has too many projects going on. Will stand a bit on his toes to make my gears first!
BTW - did you leave the oil jets in the timing cover oil gallery out on purpose?
The left cases are the most work to correct and strengthen the gear drive to keep it all in line when full power is applied. So I start with the worst - once this is completed I will enjoy myself with laping valve seats and other trivia. Now its a couple days uphill and as soon as the gear drive is finished its downhill all the way until I put the last screw into the wooden box to send you the motors back!

From Max... yes, the oil feed jets were removed on purpose.  The oiling system on Black Lightning is a semi splash, which pretty much lubes the pistons and the lower end. 



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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2012, 10:46:56 PM »

26 Jan from Hartmut
after carefully checking and measuring the gear drive between the cranks I found a couple things that I did not like. The pins were not parallel to each other, the rear was lose anyway. The crankcases were not parallel so we had the tendency for the gears to wander outboard under load. And finally there were several small cracks in the gear drive plate - probably generated by swarf going through the gears. So I decided to mill it away and leave only the inner plate for the correct fitment of the engines in the frame. I welded an aluplate into the plate between the engines and repaired a lot of cracks around the crankcases, cut all the helicoils out as the bosses around them were cracked anyway, removed most of that material and welded it all up, including the seal face of the chain drive to the clutch. Then milled it all flat and straight, cut a rectangular pocket in the welded-in plate to locate the new gear plate. The gear plate is shrunk into that plate now and secured by 15 screws that lock it to the crankcases. I then decided which gears to use - thank god you sent the other gears as well - will use two of them. The holes in them are not cut concentric but they are too small anyway so we are in the process of machining them correctly - the two gears that I need will go into the carrier plate and have the needle bearings fitted. I managed to arrange the whole gears that I can still use both crank gears with their original pins with both cranks locked to TDC on front cylinders. To give the gears a sideways bearing we will machine a 4mm deep pocket with metric thread 70mm x 1mm. Into these threads I insert bronze plates, threaded with said thread outside. So we are making these plates right now - three LH threaded, three RH threaded. This to have the gears tighten them if they put load on them - which I doubt as I got the engines fairly straight - less than 0,5mm crocked - before it was 2,5mm. See the strengthening ribs between the cases - these help to keep them straight.
Outboard the carrier plate I will fit a 1" thick aluminum plate that carries high load roller bearings for the crank and the other three bronze plates. The plate will be bolted to the carrier and incorporates the three pins for the gears, these sitting in pockets and bolted up as well to the plate. Thus the bearings are where the load is and these roller bearings keep the cranks in line at all times. 
The carrier and outer plate will be machined on Mikes CNC after I have taken all necessary measurements today.
 
NOW MORE GOOD NEWS:
 
Bernhard (the race car guy) was here this morning and checked out the Muncie gearbox. I explained to him how we use the box with the manually selected low gear etc. He says there is no way to make the Muncie stuff work again but he will construct all new gear internals including the selector stuff. It will get straight cut gears as the angled gears put a not wanted side load into the box. He says he can incorporate a mechanical device into the selector to push the box out of first gear before it engages second or high. The driving dogs will be like in a proper modern motorcycle gearbox - probably 6 of them each gear - thus faster shifting and deeper engagement. 
So today I strip the box completely, wash it all and deliver it to Bernhard in the evening. He will then use his CAD and construct a new set of gear pinions into the old housing. Within a few weeks we should be able to machine the gears on Mikes CNC lathe and deliver them to the gear cutter. I told Bernhard about the high torque at low revs going into the box but he is confident that he can make it much stronger than it was.
 
Back to the engines:
Succeeded to make the cranks spin free and true after checking it all out, taking the heavy lump apart several times etc. The spacers between the taper bearings were worn (not hardened) so I make new and have them hardened and ground.
So now I take the final measurements for those gear pins and finish machining the carrier plate free cuts for the gears.
Then it all goes onto Mikes CNC mill and will get the pin holes machined into the carrier and outer plate, together with the crank holes for maximum correctness. Bernhard had a look at it and said he is sure that this gear drive will stand all punishments.
 
Next step is the making of the sprockets for the clutch drive - they are worn anyway and have cracks along the weld. So I will make them from solid and have them case hardened. Will order more material as I want to make a new clutch shaft as well. Want it slightly longer to fit a double lipped seal. The outer seal in the cover will be replaced by a smaller seal (diameter) as I can get it out of the chain then - no more chain links rubbing at the seal and no need to modify the seal for clearance internally.
Had a look into the cylinder # 2 and was able to get the aluminium out, liner is still fit for use. Tomorrow I will select the pistons for assembly and send them off for coating.
 


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* mating plate.JPG (82.93 KB, 640x480 - viewed 150 times.)
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2012, 11:02:48 PM »

More
Inserted the new gears and put 0,004" paper between the teeth for minimum clearance. Locked all the gears in their position by inserting alustrips between gear and housing. Then used a pilot drill inside the bearings to get some clearance for the next tool - the cutter. This was pressed into a steel piece having the exact inner diameter as the bearings - no play, just enough to let it spin in the bearing. Now I have three proper datum holes! Tomorrow I take it all apart and take the big plate one last time off the engines. Then its off to Mike and his CNC wonder to mill the bores accurately into the plate and cover and of course thread the big bores for the bronze plates.
To use up this evening I started on the cover plate to locate the new bearings. I used the old needle roller sleeves to find the exact centers - my measuring was not far off. I measured 275, 45 - turned out 275,48 mm (this is slightly more than ONE thou in your system) is the proper distance - checked with tightened crank nuts of course. Now I will place 3 dowels and a couple screws into the cover plate to locate it on the carrier. Then it all lines up and cannot be moved.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2012, 11:06:28 PM »

another pic


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2012, 11:08:44 PM »

Here you see the new roller bearings. Offered up the cover to show you the available space - PLENTY. No problem incorporating the bearings into that big plate.


* DSC01040.JPG (81.93 KB, 640x480 - viewed 146 times.)
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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Robert W. P. "Stainless" Steele Wichita, Kansas



« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2012, 11:23:15 PM »

1 Feb from Hartmut
The two plates are (almost) finished now. Yesterday Mike worked his magic on the 5 axis CNC mill. Milled the bores for the pins and threaded the holes for the side thrust washers. Today I turned the pins and threaded them at the outer end for an extra nut to hold it all together. I drilled the washers for some oil pockets and checked them for fitment - three LH thread, three RH threaded. All fits nice and snug.Made a tool for tightening the washers - and used YOUR spanner size 1 and 1/2" wink.
While I write I wait for the oven to come up to temp to shrink the pins in. Then I will dress up the outer circumference of the outer plate tomorrow and should be finished with this part of the job. Tool Steel is ordered for the five sprockets of the chains and the clutch shaft. I should get it by weekend and will bring it straight into the hardening shop to have it all glown out for a couple hours to relieve all stress inside. This will keep everything nice and straight when I bring the finished parts there for casehardening. Bit more work but well worth it.
Yesterday I had a long conversation with Bernhard about the gearbox - he came up with the following:
 
He will make up a diagram of all three gears and we can chose what ratio we want.
We will not use the old shafts anymore - he has slot cutters in 34 and 40mm size which he uses in turbo / blown cars over  700 hp without any problems - so we will use these slot cutters for the input and output sprockets. As I machine them new anyway from a solid piece we will have it all running dead true and no play anywhere - just what we want.
The gear change gets a different internal design, first gear will be engaged manually - like before - but pushed out of engagement mechanically in the gearbox before second gear engages. The pushed out low gear will get and extra safety device for staying out of gear. So it will not depend on that lever that pushes it out for double safety.
Bernhard recons that 4 engaging dogs will be enough and will assure a fast and dead secure gear change.
I made sure that he knows the gear change lever outside the box has to go up and down for gear changing and has to stay in the same place as the liners chassis is very cramped and no other place available. He says this will not present a problem to incorporate in the design. At the moment he takes all measurements and makes drawings from the old box to know all the important dimensions - the he starts on his CAD thing and designs each and every piece on the computer. Then I only need to order the material and turn all the wheels on my lathe to prepare the shafts and gears for teeth cutting. Seems we only keep the box - everything else will be new and perfect. Should be fun to click the switch and have next gear in immediately.


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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2012, 11:27:46 PM »

as I said in my last mail: slotcutting was the wrong word - I meant broaches! Yes - we will use the good broaches that Bernhard has - they will be easily up to the job in hand. Here is the last pic for today. Pins are in. Very tight and strong.


* DSC01056.JPG (67.24 KB, 640x480 - viewed 178 times.)
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, MSA Bockscar Lakester with a little N20 
MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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