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Author Topic: 650cc A-BG build TDR  (Read 7824 times)
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MTABike
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 02:17:03 PM »

Adding tubes and tubes and tubes...









I'm a bit further along than this, but it doesn't look much different.  I need to re-think and certainly remake the tubes that come off the lower steering head and where they connect back into the frame, as the coping got a little too loose for a good weld.  I'll be posting updates once a week hopefully on Mondays.  Please feel free to hassle me if I don't.  Long ways to go and 8 months is not very much time with the pace I've been working at.
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Koncretekid
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 03:59:59 PM »

At the rate you're going, you'll be finished in a couple more days!  You only started this diary 2 days ago.  Anyway, it looks great (kind of familiar, at that).  Nice bends and looks to be good stiff design.  I like the perimeter frame as it allows lots of space to work on the top end.

The only thing I don't see so far is some lower frame members under the motor.  Maybe the motor is designed to be a stressed lower member, but who knows for sure?  You might want to add lower frame members to be sure. 

You said you thought you might be going at it a bit backwards.  I will paraphrase a well respected member of this forum and say "It doesn't matter how you start your build, it's how you finish the build that counts".

Tom
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We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 12:01:23 AM »

Gentlemen (and Ladies?),
I have not given up on my land speed endeavors, but life does occasionally slow us down on our hobby projects.  Since my last update, I convinced a good friend to machine the head tube we co-designed (Jordan's a good friend, but the most crotchety person the South side of 30 you've ever met).  I also purchased another parts bike and have gotten back at selling everything extra off on ebay.  It's a horrible chore, but I'm very close to breaking even on 4 engines, 2 front ends, 3 sets of wheels and several other necessary nick-knacks.

I've had some rather stressful developments in my life in the last few months (one of which is turning 30!), and have taken to working on the bike as a coping mechanism.  I only have one picture for you fellows right now, but you can see I'm making slow progress.  I've managed to get the forward motor mount tacked to a tube and all but the head tube roughed in.  The right side of the bike is in a similar state, but due to an earlier miscalculation, I need to remake a tube.  Do overs are humbling and I enjoy them at this point in my life so long as mark 2.0 comes out better than the "prototype".



I've also started earnestly developing a plan to marry the bits of a stock R6 wiring harness to the MoTec M4 wiring harness I have.  I wonder if some non Yamaha bike guys have any advice on a CDI ignition that doesn't live in the main brain box of a modern bike.  Alternatively, I wonder what people in general running older MoTec stuff do ignition wise on high revving motors.  If you read this, and have a suggestion or a link to read, please share. 

Sorry for the lackluster update gentlemen but I am starting to work on this contraption in earnest again and would appreciate any and all feedback you're willing to send my way. 

All the best to you and yours,
Scott

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Stainless1
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 09:22:23 AM »

Scott, one of your earlier mock ups showed you over the gas tank.... the tank will hold you into the air and not let you get behind the stem.  You are running efi so you have a pump, build a tank and mount it low in the frame for ballast and aero. 
Do overs are common, even for old farts, so you kids shouldn't worry about them.
I'm putting a M4 on a suzuki 1 liter... I think they will do revs to 15000, which should be about your redline.  My plan is to use coil over plugs and the AEM coil driver.
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Stainless
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MSA Bockscar Lakester #1000 my fastest mile 245 and change, 84 ci turbobusa motor... but Corey's 233 MPH H/BFL record is still 3MPH faster than mine.
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 10:13:09 AM »

Unh, Scott -- turning 30 is a stressful event?  Dang, sir, you're in for one heck of a rough time if that's the case.  but take heart - many of us here have managed to survive that and even older anniversaries.  Oh, to be 29+++ again.  I could save bunches of $$ on those Viagra pills. rolleyes
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2012, 12:52:51 PM »

Slim,
Turning 30 wasn't stressful, it just makes me think that at some point here I've got to start acting like an adult (supposedly.)
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Seldom Seen Slim
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2012, 12:54:13 PM »

What?  Why the heck do you think that way?  I'm in the mid-60s and haven't allowed myself to act like an adult 'cept in extreme cases, and I'll say it without fear of being corrected - that many of the folks on this forum are like me (well, not necessarily in age) grin grin.
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Jon E. Wennerberg
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Glen
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2012, 01:54:21 PM »

I'm, 76 and still think being an adult looks pretty boring watching lawn bowling or bingo like most my age do.Some play golf. There are a lot of street rodders in Southern Utah and they always have fun. cheers
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 06:04:32 PM »

Land speed racers grow old without growing up ... Slim - I think you already said that


Joe
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 08:10:15 PM »

Scott, work = force x distance.  Force = mass x acceleration.  Acceleration is changing the velocity or direction of travel of a mass.  It can be deduced that a part of a system that flaps or flops around uses work to do this.  The work on our LSR bikes is supplied by the engine.  The sum of this is reducing flappy and floppy things leaves more engine energy available for going fast.

A long chain is relatively heavy and when it oscillates it travels further - compared to a short chain.  It can create a significant power loss and a little 600cc engine does not have horsepower to spare.

These may be performance benefits to driving two jack shafts with short toothed belts and having a rear chain of normal length.  The belts are lighter and they flop for shorter distances.  Less energy loss.

Another concern is the loads on your power transmission system.  A long chain weighs more - even if it is restrained.  Chains do not wear evenly.  They have what we call "loose" and "tight" spots.  These are more pronounced with longer chains.  This uneven wear causes variations in the chain tension on the sprocket and transmission system that was not considered in the original design.

Last, all chains hang in a catenary shape.  Long chains more so.  It can take a lot of tension make a long one straight enough to not rub on anything.  This puts a load on the power transmission system it was not designed to handle.

Anyway, some things to consider. 
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MTABike
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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 12:31:12 AM »

I want to reply to the folks interacting with me about the bike before I update again (don't want to be accused of being a spammer for all my myriad sponsors shocked).    I'm trying to format a "multi-quote" reply for the first time, so bear with me if the formatting looks funky.


At the rate you're going, you'll be finished in a couple more days!  You only started this diary 2 days ago.  Anyway, it looks great (kind of familiar, at that).  Nice bends and looks to be good stiff design.  I like the perimeter frame as it allows lots of space to work on the top end.

The only thing I don't see so far is some lower frame members under the motor.  Maybe the motor is designed to be a stressed lower member, but who knows for sure?  You might want to add lower frame members to be sure. 

You said you thought you might be going at it a bit backwards.  I will paraphrase a well respected member of this forum and say "It doesn't matter how you start your build, it's how you finish the build that counts".

Tom

Tom,
The factory frames on these bikes is a 90 degree casting with A LOT of meat at the joint.  The final frame design should easily have similar strength in this regard, although that might not be evident for a few more updates.  The way I think about it is that the engine is a semi-stressed member.  Adding traditional down tubes wouldn't allow the engine to be removed from the frame without making them removable.  I'm not against the idea, and have a backup plan if I'm not comfortable with my current design.  I do have to say that I'm looking forward to meeting you eventually and checking out your most awesome machine up close.



Scott, one of your earlier mock ups showed you over the gas tank.... the tank will hold you into the air and not let you get behind the stem.  You are running efi so you have a pump, build a tank and mount it low in the frame for ballast and aero. 
Do overs are common, even for old farts, so you kids shouldn't worry about them.
I'm putting a M4 on a suzuki 1 liter... I think they will do revs to 15000, which should be about your redline.  My plan is to use coil over plugs and the AEM coil driver.

Joe,
That gas tank was only there in the mock up to get my chest above the engine enough to account for an eventual plennum/intercooler.  The actual fuel tank will be in the upper half of the frame behind the vertical frame members you see in the photos.  The photos of the frame on the jig/fixture are a bit deceiving.  I'm 6'5" and the top of the head tube sits about half way between my knee and my thigh.  Do overs have been going well.  Are you putting a turbo on your 1l motor? I keep thinking I need to run a stand alone CDI since the stock R6 is CDI and I'm planning on a pretty good batch of boost. I have friends who work on (design) PowerCommanders for Dynojet and they make it sound like the Yamaha CDI is not very tunable/tweakable.

Scott, work = force x distance.  Force = mass x acceleration.  Acceleration is changing the velocity or direction of travel of a mass.  It can be deduced that a part of a system that flaps or flops around uses work to do this.  The work on our LSR bikes is supplied by the engine.  The sum of this is reducing flappy and floppy things leaves more engine energy available for going fast.

A long chain is relatively heavy and when it oscillates it travels further - compared to a short chain.  It can create a significant power loss and a little 600cc engine does not have horsepower to spare.

These may be performance benefits to driving two jack shafts with short toothed belts and having a rear chain of normal length.  The belts are lighter and they flop for shorter distances.  Less energy loss.

Another concern is the loads on your power transmission system.  A long chain weighs more - even if it is restrained.  Chains do not wear evenly.  They have what we call "loose" and "tight" spots.  These are more pronounced with longer chains.  This uneven wear causes variations in the chain tension on the sprocket and transmission system that was not considered in the original design.

Last, all chains hang in a catenary shape.  Long chains more so.  It can take a lot of tension make a long one straight enough to not rub on anything.  This puts a load on the power transmission system it was not designed to handle.

Anyway, some things to consider. 


Bo,
You always make excellent points and I enjoy your concise technical writing.  Your posts on this site are always very easy to follow and I would guess lead to several "AH HA," moments for many readers.  I have racked my brain a fair bit on developing a jack shaft in this iteration.  I have a plan for TDR special mk 2.0 that would incorporate such a system.  At this point, I'm going to be under the gun to get to Speedweek with my current parts/plan without adding extra axles and such.  I have a spool of chain, and this being a dedicated race bike, I think that it will hold up 3-5 miles at a time between inspections. 

Slim, Glen, Joe, et al.
I appreciate the ribbing and advice about aging.  Between those of you codgers grin that I've met and my very spry mother,  I'm not worried about what's to come...
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MTABike
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 01:06:09 AM »

The last photo I posted showed version 2 of the lower left tube, and the first diagonal tube in that section. 

Here's the other side re-done



I've worked on several of the tubes that tie both halves of the frame together.  This is a picture of the cross tube that connects the busy joint in the middle of the frame while it was still in rough notched form



Pete did some trimming on parts of the jig to clear a few cross tubes and motor mount brackets







Lower rear motor mounts coming along.  They consist of a machined slug that passes through a plate that welds to the frame.





Added the last set of vertical bars in the front part of the frame





Keep in mind that the frame is almost completely asymmetrical.  It's hard to convey in the pictures without everything just looking funky and skewed. You can also see my number 1 crew member Holley.

I got another diagonal roughed in after work tonight.  I should get this and the corresponding tube on the other side finished tomorrow.



More to come soon.  I'm always interested in feedback.  Thanks for reading.
~Scott
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 08:24:33 PM »

I wouldn't concern myself with symmetry.  The engines are assymetrical and if the frame hugs the engine profile it will be similar. The center of gravity would be a greater concern.  The steering neck should be plumb, the rear axle level and the wheels in alignment. 
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MTABike
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2012, 06:45:38 PM »

Slowly plugging away here.  I've been adding tubes and motor mounts slowly but steadily.  Welding joints up a quarter of their circumference at a time.  This has to be done before another tube covers part of an existing joint.  Head tube and frame have been permanently attached, which makes it look a lot more like a motorcycle. Decided to raise the rear of the bike 1" so as not to run into scrub line issues. The plan right now is to keep welding tubes, finish the right rear engine mounts, and design/build the rear axle dropouts. Once the bike is a roller I'll move on to things like tanks and mounting pumps (doesn't SPARKY call that bracket racing?) and getting a stock engine running in the chassis.  At this rate I'll be racing before 2020...






















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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2012, 06:52:50 PM »

That is some sexy fab work.  cheers
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