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Author Topic: Sidecars  (Read 30265 times)
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bak189
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« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2006, 01:52:34 PM »

James;  If and when you plan to build a LSR sidecar .....do yourself a favor and talk to some of the people that have been racing "chairs" in LSR in past years.....it will make for a better and safer outfit in the long run...
and also save you a lot of work and money.  Best of luck.
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LittleLiner
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« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2006, 03:05:14 PM »

All this talk about sidecars is very interesting.  Can anyone say what it is like to drive a streamliner sidecar?  What I am talking about is one that is setup like the McLeish Bros. rig.  One with the driver in the prone position like a car streamliner.   A while back I exchanged some email with Hawkwind on this.  Would be interested to hear what others think or know.
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bak189
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« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2006, 06:44:01 PM »

When we build our sidecar streamliner back in the late 1980 and ran it in the early 1990's.
Larry Coleman drove it...Larry has many years experience with sidecars
being a 3 times National Roadracing Champion back in the 1970's.  We had Larry driving the outfit in a normal sitting position...inside a
roll-gage.  We did have some problem with Tech.  ( BNI )at that time but with Tom Evans help we got them resolved. Fast time for us with that outfit was 174+mph.
However, BNI rules state that over 175mph streamliners need to have a chute...this is one of the reasons
we retired the outfit not knowing
what opening the chute would do to
a handling of the outfit....in fact to this day we really still do not know how it would work....we do have some more input now...but have not run a streamliner since 1991.
Larry is driving our present outfit
which if everything is right should exceed 175mph....but not being a streamliner...(if I read the rules right) does not require a chute.
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Flying Kiwi
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« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2006, 10:05:17 PM »

Hi James

If you ever decide to get serious and build a LSR Sidecar streamliner you should talk to me first, there is no information on Aerodynamics for asymmetric vehicles and you should really be looking at using the airflow to provide stability at high speed, we have done all the research and would be happy to share it with seroius contenders, our bike produces its own weight in downforce at 280 kmh and i am sure that without it i would have been in real trouble.
Thanks for the kind words about the bike, after all this time i still can't decide if it is a beautiful thing or not!

Has anybody seen the movie Worlds Fastest Indian yet?
 
you all have to go as soon as you get the chance.. kids and all, Land speed Racing is never going to look better!


cheers
phil
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Never take no for an answer and never give up.
If you really believe in what you are doing and youre really keen then you will succeed.
It is as simple as that.
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bak189
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« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2006, 11:30:55 PM »

Anybody planning to race a sidecar at the 2006 AMA/FIM BUB Speed Trials, needs to take a look at the AMA rules for 2006....there have been some  positive changes
made in the area of platform size,
passengers and ballast.  It looks like we may be getting back to "real" sidecars, hopefully SCTA/BNI
will rewrite their sidecar rules in the near future.
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« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2006, 11:52:10 PM »

The parachute thing is interesting.  Looking at the rules they say that a sidecar streamliner must conform with streamliner rules except skids.  The parachute rule for streamliners says that ALL streamliners must have a parachute.  Those running over 250 must have two parachutes.  The paragraph goes on to say that there must be a mechanical device that automatically opens the 'chute if the streamliner angles over 50 deg. on an enclosed tail streamliner or 80 deg. on an open tail streamliner.  Which brings up the question, how does a streamliner sidecar meet that requirement?   At El Mirage there is a rule that says all vehicles going over 150 must have a 'chute.  That obviously does'nt apply to bikes or sidecars.    I have a problem with being strapped to something that if the worst should happen you're stuck with it until it stops bouncing around.  I guess it comes from being on bikes all my life.  Hopefully mine will go straight.  And I'm looking forward to seeing The Worlds Fastest Indian.  I've only seen snippets but I remember as a kid reading about Burt Munro at Bonneville.
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DKA
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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2006, 11:56:12 PM »

I've thought a lot about running a sidecar liner.  If the driver is in a head first prone position, how can one build a roll cage to meet the current scta rules?  Didn't Vesco build a 50cc liner where the driver was prone?  
Phil, does your research on aerodynamics have information about non- sidecar two wheeled liners?  I'd be very interested in that.
David
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« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2006, 01:00:20 AM »

Hi DKA

You are spot on about the rules and the need for a roll cage that complies, if i was to build another one i would use the prone position without question.

I come from a road racing background and the position is familiar to me and i went with what i knew, on reflection we would have been much better of with a prone possition because it reduces frontal area and therefore drag.

I also started with a road race chair as a start point for the design, even after nearly 100 prototypes we did not consider changing the seating position, i had no photos or information on any other design of sidecar built for record breaking and we used what was familiar to us at the time.

The other factor that influenced me was the rules that i had to follow, The FIM rules for a World record and Motorcycling NZ for a national record, neither have anything like as much detail in them as the SCTA rules especially for sidecars. I had no thoughts of running at Utah when i started, i only wanted to do it here in NZ.

We would however be in a much stronger position if we had used the SCTA rules because i now understand that they are the product of many years refinement and are designed to protect the rider as well as the rest of the crew, the motorcycling NZ rules are for racing sidecars and the detail on record attempts is purely environmental.

To answer your question about 2 wheel liners, our research did not cover 2 wheelers, but the guy who ran the aero team worked on the Britten powered White Lightning in the early 90's and still has all the data, he is the Wind Tunnel Engineer and a very knowledgable guy. if you send me a bit of info on what you are doing i will pass it on

www.goflyingkiwi.co.nz
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It is as simple as that.
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« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2006, 01:42:49 AM »

Hi DKA,    If you are interested in build a sidecar 'liner you might want to check out bike 5050B.  Its a two wheel 'liner but could just as easily be made into a sidecar.  The rider is in a head first prone position.  From what I could see he gets in, lays down and one of his crew secures the belts.  The belt latch is on the flat of his back with a quick release cable runs forward to the rider.  I did'nt get a chance to examine it better as I was in line to make a run, but it is an interesting concept.  If you go to www.scta-bni.org and click on to El Mirage.  The bike photos in June have a couple of good shots of it and I think if you poke around the bike photos from 2004 and 2005 I think you will find a number of photos.  How his roll cage is built I don't know but I'm sure it would'nt be too difficult to comply with the rules.  And it would make for one very interesting outfit.  For the moment I think I'll go feet first.  Or as a friend said "Luge rather than skeleton."
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« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2006, 02:29:59 AM »

You might want to check out the Gravity Powered Vehicle Association to see if they have an event in your area. It would be very informative for your project. The Luge Boards are really well studied.
Signal Hill might be the closest. One guy went from the top of Cajon Pass in traffic and got a big ticket for his trouble at the bottom. He displayed a copy all over to verify his official speed recorded by the CHP. The guy that stopped to pick him up got a ticket for stopping on the freeway. The cop was really mad and I don't suggest you go for that record. The next time the criminal might go to jail for hitting the Cop's night stick with his head.
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2006, 05:15:07 PM »

I tried to get the SCTA to set up their lights at the bottom of the pass.  But they told me that their lights "could only time vehicles that approached in a straight line.  So then it hit me!  Put an engine in it.  How simple and cunning.  I know you don't like sidecars.  But try not to think of us as such.  Think of us as disadvantaged roadsters.
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« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2006, 06:49:03 PM »

HISTERICAL  FACTOID # 979
Their timers work from point to point, reguardless of how you got their and where you go next.
Vesco on an open bike went outside the cones onto fresh dirt and turned in at the first photo cell and went diagonal throught the traps to also avoid the parallel ruts.
If they ever saw it , I would be surprised and nothing was ever said either.
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« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2006, 07:46:16 PM »

So thats the secret.  Think outside the cone.
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« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2006, 09:01:19 PM »

Thinking will always do better first before you get to the cone.
While that is not a "Speed Secret" it does often escape those that refuse to get it in the right order.
Don't depend on the rule book or the rulers to do all your thinking for you because that puts you behind some that maybe didn't give it enough thought or bother to ask.
This place can show a lot of that. LOL wink
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dwarner
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« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2006, 09:17:25 PM »

Outside the cones is far from new. Paul Dearth did it in '63 when I was there with Bob Noice. I've seen Lattin do it and I told Andy G it would be a good thing to do in '84.

DW
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